View Full Version : Dr Pepper and PBG parting already?

05-28-2003, 04:56 PM
Some interesting things happening here with PBG and Dr Pepper, which is under Pepsi control.

1) At the local Wal-Mart, Dr Pepper has vanished, only Pepsi, Diet Pepsi, Pepsi One, Mountain Dew, Mountain Dew Code Red and Sierra Mist remain. It did remain in 20 oz. at the front of the store, but not in 2L, not in 24 packs either.

2) At the other local Wal-Mart, they moved Dr Pepper and Schweppes next to Pepsi, but next to 7Up/RC.

3) At markets here, Dr Pepper sections have become smaller, and are not filled. There's only about 1 slot at Giant Eagle for 12 packs, and maybe 3 for 2L's. PBG has done an awful job putting Red Fusion out here, rarely is it ever seen, until a month ago, it was nowhere to be found.

but maybe the fate of Dr Pepper has been seen today when I walked into work, and one of the employees carried in a 20 oz. Mr. Green. Anyone heard anything about Dr Pepper and PBG relations, figured the dropping of 7-Up would bring this, but figured some kind of formal announcement would be made. Mr. Green can't be bought anywhere here unless you go 40 miles east into Washington County, then you'll find it since Dr Pepper there is DPSU. Anyone have any knowledge as to what's going on? It appears Pepsi here in a couple of months lost all DPSU ties.

05-28-2003, 10:39 PM
Pepsi can not sell Mr Green and Dr. Pepper both.

As for Wal mart I think I heard that DPSU made a deal to put all DPSU in same section no matter who sold them.

05-28-2003, 10:41 PM
Also DPSU can not be happy with Mnt Dew Livewire pushing on Sunkist.

05-28-2003, 11:04 PM
Dr Pepper along w/7Up was sold w/Pepsi stuff at Wal-Mart here. Our local WM doesn't sell 7Up/RC products, meaning Dr Pepper is as good as dead here if it goes over there. You can't hardly buy 7Up in the Western 2 MD counties anymore since Pepsi dropped it. Seeing Mr. Green today is pretty much telling me Dr Pepper's days are doomed.

Terry K
05-29-2003, 03:31 AM
Originally posted by datruth:
Pepsi can not sell Mr Green and Dr. Pepper both.

As for Wal mart I think I heard that DPSU made a deal to put all DPSU in same section no matter who sold them.Correct. EVERY wal*mart I've seen has had DP and 7up next to each other.

If Pepsi in any area is selling Mr Green (which I hear has tanked most everywhere its been rolled out) in tandem with Dr Pepper, DPSU can and WILL pull the franchise. I can quickly see Coke bottlers jumping on DP in areas where Pepsi is giving up on it. I can't think of a situation where DP has transitioned from Pepsi to Coke as of late, anyone know of any?

(Although in DPSU bottler controlled areas, it would be pretty obvious if DP went to those bottlers like ABC)

the saint
05-29-2003, 11:45 AM
new shelf schematics at wal mart include 1) coke section, 2) Pepsi section, 3) cadbury section (dpsu, and 4) all other brands. whether or not pepper is by Pepsi or coke it is supposedly going to go into the cadbury section. It is all a share number/shelf allocation thing has Nothing to do with money (so wallyworld says)

05-29-2003, 06:23 PM
Here there is no DPSU section at all. Before it was never divided. I saw that same guy w/another 20 oz. Mr. Green today. Checked Martin's, Giant Eagle, Food Lion, and Wal-Mart, and it seems Dr Pepper is around a little at the actual markets, and there was no sign of Mr. Green. Mr. Green is in this area, but I haven't found it yet. I saw it last summer in a cooler at Giant Eagle for a week, then it never came back. I didn't know it was anything slightly resembling Dr Pepper at the time. This mystery still has a lot to be solved.

05-31-2003, 08:42 AM
Dr Pepper-PBG relations continue to be good...not great. However, there is no way PBG will give up DP. There is also no way Cadbury would want to take DP to the independant bottlers. Look at what is happening with 7 Up in a lot of areas. Cadbury let the Pepsi bottlers sell Livewire since it is billed as an "in-out". If it doesn't go "out", there will be franchise implications. That's what a pretty informed person told me.

05-31-2003, 05:08 PM
However you have to consider Sunkist isn't in any PBG territory that I know of, some indies and Pepsi Americas may have it or Crush, so I doubt it would effect many places.

MD LiveWire does taste different than a typical orange to me. I can't see where a typical orange really conflicts w/it, as there is that aftertaste of MD that won't be appealing to some drinkers, why I'd keep a Slice around.

06-01-2003, 06:32 PM
PBG has Sunkist in at least 2 big markets...Atlanta and Miami. They can not afford any additional share losses in Atlanta.

06-01-2003, 06:52 PM
It doesn't make any sense to me why Pepsi struggles so much in Atlanta. Although Coke is headquartered there, Pepsi has a strong lineup, with Mountain Dew, Dr Pepper, formerly 7-Up (now Sierra Mist I figure), and Sunkist. A lineup like that up here in the Northeast would put Coke out of business pretty much. I guess when a city's extremely loyal to its product, it pretty much destroys your business, as in the case of Pepsi in Atlanta. So I take it the RC bottler makes Crush then?

06-01-2003, 10:31 PM
Just came home from South Florida and both PBG Miami and Pepsi-Cola Bottling Co. of Ft. Lauderdale & the Palm Beaches both carry Sunkist. PCBCFLPB has a weird line up. Besides the regular Pepsi items, they carry Sunkist (Orange & Pineapple) Dr Pepper, 7-UP, Seagrams, Welches (Grape & Strawberry). PBG Miami has Sunkist and Dr Pepper. CCE Miami actually bottles two different Ginger Ales. They bottle Seagrams for Miami-Dade, and Schweppes for Broward & Palm Beach counties. Another interesting find was Pepsi product from Pepsi-Cola Jamaica. Many groceries carried 20oz Ting and other fruit flavors in Swirl bottles. Southwest-Atlantic distibutes a wide variety of products (mostly DPSU products) where there are voids in the distibution areas. SW-A distibutes Cheerwine in Florida. Also, there is a importer in Miami that distributes 354ml glass bottles of Coca-Cola from Costa-Rica. I also finally got to try Boylans.

[ 06-01-2003, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: bigrich ]

06-02-2003, 10:38 AM
Bigrich, I was in the Ft Lauderdale area last year and am going again in 10 days. Can you give me a better idea where the Jamaican Pepsi is.
I could only find Boylans on the Keys.

06-02-2003, 04:06 PM
So Pepsi in Florida has maintained 7Up rights, not dropping it for Sierra Mist?

06-02-2003, 05:28 PM
PBG Miami has Sierra Mist. Pepsi FTLPB has 7-UP. The Jamacian Pepsi Products (only products not sold in US) I bought at Neighbor's IGA on Sunrise Blvd. IGA is west of I95 around Sunset Stripe. They sat with the ethnic products.

06-02-2003, 09:55 PM
Some people have made some pretty good arguments here but I bleive that Pepsi and Pepper are not long together I mean Pepsi gave up 7up which was insane so why not Pepper, granted Peper is a better brand but still 7up was/is huge and the replaced it with that crap Mist. I think that we can see the future in the fountain line up at Yumm inc store (Taco Bell, Pizza Hut, KFC) they dropped Pepper here a few months back just like they dropped 7up a few years ago. It seems that they are trying to transition Pepper drinkers to Cherry Pepsi- why not Mr. Green I don't know. Anyways it took 3 years from when Mist came into Yumm stores for 7up to get the boot so I give Dr. Pepper the same life expectancy with Pepsi. DPSU is insane to continue a relationship with them after this whole 7up fiasco.

06-02-2003, 10:28 PM
You can go to seabev.com to where Pepsi gave up 7up.

06-02-2003, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by bigrich:
PBG Miami has Sierra Mist. Pepsi FTLPB has 7-UP. The Jamacian Pepsi Products (only products not sold in US) I bought at Neighbor's IGA on Sunrise Blvd. IGA is west of I95 around Sunset Stripe. They sat with the ethnic products.SH$T :eek: I was in that store.

06-03-2003, 02:11 AM
just got back from a long road trip... You know, I saw a Pepsi cooler in a convenience store the other day that had both Dr Slice AND Mr Green in it. I only noticed because I hadn't seen Dr Slice but once ever before, and thought it had been dropped by Pepsi.


Terry K
06-03-2003, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by Android:
just got back from a long road trip... You know, I saw a Pepsi cooler in a convenience store the other day that had both Dr Slice AND Mr Green in it. I only noticed because I hadn't seen Dr Slice but once ever before, and thought it had been dropped by Pepsi.

I'd love to know where Dr Slice is sold. Please let me know, because I wanna get some of it!

06-03-2003, 08:28 AM
The last I saw PBG sold 16% of Dr Pepper sales and another Pepsi Group sold 9%. I think the total was less than 35%.

06-03-2003, 10:20 AM
Yeh i hear Dr. P preforms better with Coke, not sure why though. Dr. Slice is good stuff where did you see it Android?

06-03-2003, 01:43 PM
I'm trying to remember where I saw Dr Slice. It was somewhere in Iowa. I was travelling down US20 in Iowa, I think it was in a truck stop near Early, Iowa.


06-03-2003, 03:34 PM
The thing is Dr Pepper and its future I think leads to third tier bottlers. If PBG were to give up Dr Pepper here, the thing is Central Coke pushes Pibb heavily, and MAC doesn't have the capacity to bottle Dr Pepper, meaning it would go to 7Up/RC. However, in a CCE controlled area, Dr Pepper may end up in Coke's hands, but I think something of this nature would basically solidify 3 solid product lines in the US, meaning Coke, Pepsi, and Dr Pepper would have significant market share.

The thing is DPSU says that once they make their product independent, it sells better, and that's how they've tried to justify pulling Sunkist, Squirt, Canada Dry, Welch's, and A&W franchises across the country from Pepsi and Coke bottlers where they've had rights. This makes me keep thinking Dr Pepper being pushed as a primary drink will make DPSU revoke all franchises, to both Pepsi and Coke, I think in the not too distant future.

06-04-2003, 12:23 AM
Titan I think your right that the smaller ones do a better job with the SMALLER brand but thw big ones like 7up and Dr. Pepper pretty much bomb with smaller bottlers. They lose fountain, shelf space, and vending machines. As for smaller brands, smaller dists. care more about them and push them more. I doubt DPSU will pull from Coke especially considering that CCE owns Pepper internationally.

06-04-2003, 06:00 PM
True, Pepsi is a much more likely target, but consider what Coke has done to get rid of Sunkist, Squirt, Welch's, A&W and Canada Dry recently to get more "Coke" oriented products like Mello Yello, Minute Maid, Barq's, and Seagram's.

3rd tier bottlers have no success unless their product line intrudes deeply into another, as is the case with RC Winchester, where they're not even close to hurting, as they have as much shelf space as anyone, and vending machines are everywhere.

Valley Beverages, the local distributor for 7Up and RC, had little shelf space before acquiring 7Up from Pepsi and they still have not gained any, 7Up has been scrinched in basically. I haven't seen an RC machine here in years, and there are still none, meaning 7Up has all but died in the 2 Western MD counties. Garrett and Allegany, serviced out of PBG Cumberland's office, was one of only 2 Pepsi bottlers in MD to have 7Up rights (the other Pepsi Salisbury on the Eastern Shore), and the rest of the state it was in the independent circuit. They need machines immediately to push 7Up, and if Dr Pepper comes into their possession, they NEED machines.

With RC Winchester territory, they are everywhere in Martinsburg and Winchester where they hold Mountain Dew rights, but when you get into Hagerstown, it sometimes becomes a little harder finding their products, as Mountain Dew is Pepsi controlled there, DP and SU remain independent. These problems also exist through Chambersburg and through Frederick.

06-05-2003, 09:26 PM
Here's the logic on the Pepper/Cola association. DPSU will go to great lengths to keep Pepper strong and vibrant so that niether Pepsi or Coke can afford to drop it. Since most...(not all) cola bottlers treat Pepper better than other DPSU brands, it enjoys great distribution in c-stores, vending, cold drink etc. Many places the independants have not and will not penetrate. If the cola boys get rid of Pepper, the volume will drop big time. DPSU can not afford another "flush".

Coke or Pepsi will not give up Pepper since it can be the tie breaker in many markets. They are also afraid if they drop it, the other guy will get it. Unlike 7 Up, Pepper does not have a competitor. They can't exactly replace the Pepper volume with something else. If Pibb or Dr. Slice/Mr. Green were remotely competitive with Pepper, it would of been gone a while ago.The danger for DPSU is if the cola guys decide to limit the growth of Pepper simply to maintain volume and play defense against their cola competitor.

Very little chance that DPSU can "revoke" a franchise unless it's for blatant violations of the franchise agreement. They are issued in perpituity and rarely, if ever pulled.

My 4 cents.

06-05-2003, 11:33 PM
dpsu can't revoke franchises unless some parts of the contracts are breached, such as sales performances or quality control assurances.

for example, coors contracts that their beer must be in a cooler at 34 degrees while in storage.

however, dpsu can let those contracts lapse in markets where they already have a strong presence. that's the rumor that they will do in the metro detroit area, pulling with them dr pepper and squirt from coke, possibly schweppes from coke too and maybe vernors from pepsi.

crush is carried by a fourth tier. that fourth tier also has dad's RB and other monarch stuff in limited 16oz glass capacity. it'd be wise if they could pick up a mixer (say schweppes if coke gets seagrams and 7up sticks with canada dry).

i saw pepsi with schweppes in colorado a couple years ago, it was weird seeing it in the big slam 1 liter bottle. big slam some diet tonic! whooooo!

06-06-2003, 12:23 AM
In the Mid-Atlantic, Pepsi is very strong with Schweppes, Coke with Seagram's, and Canada Dry dists. with Canada Dry. DC, Baltimore, NYC, Philly.. and everywhere in between. You have to get to New York before you see CCE with Canada Dry. CCE New England also has it, and an indie has Seagram's. I've seen CCE Schweppes in Florida.

It was kind of weird to go to the Northern Neck area of Virginia and see Coke have Northern Neck ginger ale there. Though I have been told that CCE and Central Coke couldn't give the stuff away when they tried to sell it.

06-06-2003, 12:50 AM
I think we all agree on the same logic. Pepsi dropping would be a bad idea. However I'm gonna have to dissagree with Runwithdalilguy. I feel that before the dropping of 7up Sierra Mist was no stronger a brand than Mr. Green is now. So to be honost I don't see the diffrence between these 2 cases. Sure Pepper is a slighty bigger brand but other than that I predict the same end product. I suppose only time will tell. Take ur bets gents!

Terry K
06-06-2003, 06:04 AM
There are a couple things about DP and Pepsi that don't add up:

1. DPSU messed up by not tying 7up distribution to DP. If they did, you can bet PBG would not have dumped 7up. DPSU is reportely very unhappy with some of the distribution agreements they've had to put into place since Pepsi yanked 7up.

2. DPSU gives bottlers tons of co-op money to spend annually on promoting product. Its questionable how much Pepsi has used.

3. Here in Springfield, MO, various institutions that Pepsi bought the pouring rights to are VERY upset they can't get Dr Pepper and that will be addressed on renewal (I've gathered Coke may get quite a few contracts by default because of Pepper's power and the way OZ does business)

4. The Red Fusion fiasco. No one is pushing this product. Pepsi bottlers sure as heck aren't doing so. The only bottler I have seen push it hard is Ozarks Coke. (A lot of that is because the owner of OZ was on the committee that formulated the product and he believes in it)

I strongly suspect that the majority of Indie Pepsi bottlers will keep Pepper in any case because it *is* a good seller. If Pepsi Americas or PBG were to dump Pepper, especially here in Missouri, I can see OZ very quickly adding a lot of DP territory.

06-06-2003, 09:46 AM
To your points:
DPSU could not link the two because prior to 1985 these were separate companies that signed franchise agreements independent of each other. Also any linking language would be subject to anti trust evaluation.
2. DPSU USED to spend tons. Now a bottler only receives cash on a performance basis. You perform X, they pay. Your business grows. they pay. You dont play or grow...you dont get cash. Period.
3. What those institutions lose is commissions from vending due to the fact that every convenience store in the Queen City will sell a 20oz. so that they can carry on to many of the campuses. (SMS, Evangel, etc) Dr Pepper postmix is the number one seller in QSR restaurants in Springfield and if you dont have it...you can suffer.
4. Red Fusion. A case study for a business class in truly understanding your customer. DPSU's customers are bottlers. Two things...timing was strained due to Vanilla Coke intro at CCE and really the product needs enhancement, in my opionion.

Finally, you and I and wagon could distribute Seven Up as well as some of the new distributors are going.

06-06-2003, 10:55 AM
Yeh I hate to see 7up in such a bad place. Its a good brand hardly deserving of the situation its in. I don't entirely blame the new indy bottlers. They have a brand that is too big for many of them to handle. They don't have the accounts or the money to push it. DPSU needs to do more to help them out unless they wanna see 7up fade into the sunset. I honostly belive that unless DPSU does something 7up will die, slowly yes but it will.

06-06-2003, 01:16 PM
I cannot disagree more. Do you know how much these distributors paid for their franchises?? Nothing. Zero. Freebie. What do you think a 73 year old, globally recognized brand is going for these days. Tired and battered yes, but still a value.

No. These independents need to stop making excuses and start acting like bottlers. Like the original Seven Up bottlers, John Joyce, Tony Imbesi, Entrepreneurs, community leaders. These guys have been given an american icon and all they want to do is complain and cry for DPSU to do more.

Invest in vending, fountain equipment. Invest in routing systems, hire good people and invest in their futures.

Stop crying and work like the people who built the brand did.

DPSU is always there when bottlers work but they have stopped being a banker.

03-24-2004, 12:35 AM
i hope dr.pepper goes to coca-cola across the country (they do a much better job at boattling it)