View Full Version : Why is RB sueing Bar Owners???
02-11-2004, 11:21 PM
If I had a bar I would throw RB out in the garbage. For 30 years people have been walking up to bars around the country and saying "Give me a Jack and Coke" was it always Coke that was and is being served NO! Several accounts of mine have received letters aka WARNINGS not to sell products that look like and taste like RB and not tell customers "OH this is not RB it is a knock off!" Give me a break! Throw RB in the toilet where it belongs....... sueing bar owners???
02-12-2004, 12:21 PM
This has already been a discustion point in the past. Coke does it, Pepsi does it, and so does Red Bull. Part of the issues is that if the word Coke means a soda everywere, or Red Bull and vodka means just an energy drink and vodka then they could loose their trademark, just like kleenex and thermos. Secondly, they don't want their names used to promote another product. As a busnies person, it would not be the smartest thing to not carry Red Bull. I would carry Red Bull if I owned a bar. I just wouldnt promote it as much.
02-12-2004, 05:16 PM
How about some context for you. Let's say Sum Poosie becomes the most requested energy drink in your area. So much so that Red Bull is soon forgotten. Now what would you do as a brand, if someone came out with a bag in the box energy drink that was pink in color, smelled and tasted like Sum Poosie, but was called Bad Kitty and it was much cheaper than your product. Then all of these bars that you had worked your tail off to get into and support, turned around and sold this product instead but called it Sum Poosie. (Believe me, it would happen quicker than you could post to complain about it)
If you were smart, you would do the exact same thing Red Bull is doing and protect your brand and your trademark. Otherwise, you would be out of business very quickly.
Also, for your information, do your homework, Coke and Pepsi have done the exact same thing to protect their brands. Look up a case in Nevada from Nov/1981 Coca-Cola Vs. the Topaz Lodge and Casino alleging consumers requesting Coke products and being passed off generic brands instead. Coke won that one and many others.
[ 02-12-2004, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Coco Rico ]
02-12-2004, 07:49 PM
First of all Coco I am very familiar with Coke and how they have "attempted" to protect their brand in the 1980's. At that time I owned several clubs and threw their product into the street because of a disagreement. Isn't Pepsi just a copy of Coke? I have no problem with someone making Bad Kitty and trying to duplicate my taste. Trying to copy the product is flattery and is done all the time. But to sue club owners who helped put them on the map????? Sorry wrong dead wrong. I a club owner can find an alternative that is less expensive than so be it.
SumPoosie combines great packaging with great taste to copy it is nearly impossible the images on the bottle are copywritten. My main point is sue the companies making the product if they are somehow doing something wrong not the bars that have supported RB. RB police no thanks. By the Aspartame in Diet RB?????? Who's idea was that?
02-12-2004, 08:25 PM
What if you pay $80,000 for a BMW, and all you really get is a KIA worth no more than $14,000. Same sort of deal. You ask for something, you should get it. I drink Diet Coke and hate when I get Diet Pepsi. 8 out of 10 they tell me if they don't have Coke, and I appreciate it. No one is saying you can't buy any drink you want as an owner, you just can't pass of what ever you want as the product. What if your bottler filled your bottles with another product, but told you it was Sum Poosie? I don't think you would be happy about it, and if it ruined your busines, you would sue in a second. Now, think about a $20,000,000+ company that wants to protect their rights. I think it sucks that a bar or store would get sued, but that is the way it works.
02-12-2004, 08:39 PM
Sue the company producing the so called bogus product, not the bar owner. If I need a Q-tip to get something out of my ear and I am handed a cotton swap by another manufacturer ..... who cares? People say RB sometimes because they really just want some energy with their vodka. Few people complain if given a substitute because who drinks RB for the taste? Bar owners are tired of getting pushed around by RB. How many clubs in the country have so called exclusive deals with RB?????? What is up with RB and these so called exclusive contracts.......? Sounds a lot like restrict of trade.
02-13-2004, 06:38 AM
Energydude you have just said why RB is suing people.
"People say RB sometimes because they really just want some energy with their vodka"
Why should any company spend millions to advertise their brand when any other brand can reap the benefits.
Simply put, I own a bar, I am asked for a RB and Vodka, I say "sorry but I do not sell RB, I sell Xtrem, would you like that instead?". This way at least I am not misleading my customer into believing he is drinking RB.
02-13-2004, 12:54 PM
Energydude, if you leave your discution at RB sueing bars sucks, then hey, I don't think anyone will have anything to argue about there. But there are many people who do drink Red Bull for the taste (I am definatly not one of them). I don't see anyone here saying that McDonnalds or BK or any big food chain is full of crap because they have a Coke only or Pepsi only contract. I hate the taste of Red Bull and about 75% of the other energy drinks. But once ever other year I am forced to buy a couple Red Bulls. Why? The gluecronolactones in it. If I have a hang over or know I will be getting one, I will down 2 Red Bulls (along with V-8)so the gluecronolactones will help to flush out all the alcohal impurites that are in my body. Now if I have to order a Red Bull, and am given something else, that sucks. Now I just had to choke down some crap that won't do anything for me. But thats just my senario. It just breaks down to Red Bull protecting their name for trademark reasons, and customers getting what they order, plain and simple.
02-13-2004, 02:19 PM
It's kind of funny.... on one hand RB pays clubs to keep others out (RESTRICT OF TRADE) and on the other bullies them if they try to please the other 9 out of 10 people in the bar who will not drink RB. :confused:
02-13-2004, 02:20 PM
I have no problem with someone making Bad Kitty and trying to duplicate my taste. Trying to copy the product is flattery and is done all the time. But to sue club owners who helped put them on the map????? Sorry wrong dead wrong. I a club owner can find an alternative that is less expensive than so be it.
SumPoosie combines great packaging with great taste to copy it is nearly impossible the images on the bottle are copywritten. So you are saying if all of a sudden your monthly sales drops down 1000 cases all because a cheap knock off is being sold in bars using your name, you wouldn't sue the bar to protect your product and your trademark. The images on your bottle aren't what would be copied, it would be the flavor, look, and smell. Then it would be poured out of a soda gun, who will know the difference?
This isn't flattery, it's trademark infringement and it is illegal. The Bag in Box company isn't breaking the law, it's the bar choosing to do so. It is just as illegal as filling a bottle of Grey Goose with a cheaper well vodka and charging top shelf prices.
You can make ignorant comments like that because no one is copying you, and no one is trying to pass off another product as yours. If, and this is a really big if, you were ever in Red Bull's position you would be a fool not to protect your product.
02-13-2004, 10:07 PM
Coco I understand what you are saying and I must say you always say it with such bravado. I guess what you are saying is waitresses and bartenders must have these endless conversations along with the customers to make sure RB is protected. Well sir, must it be RB or can we substitute it with a much less expensive knock off. Most people could care less! No one drinks RB because of smell, taste, or color. Most people just say RB because they know the bartender will know what they are talking about. I am served a diet cola all the time and it is not Diet Coke. By the way I was at a club tonight and they just threw RB out the door because they were angry that they had a couple of bottles of SumPoosie in "their" cooler. When the Rep. told the bar owner it "had" to come out or else, the owner said or else what??? This is my bar and I pay the bills here, you don't like it take your nasty tasting stuff out of here.
More and more bar owners simply do not like the arm twisting done by RB. They came in 5 to 7 years ago with smiles and now they come in with knifes. Just an observation by me and many others. ;)
02-14-2004, 12:45 PM
I guarentee, any bar that has a great customer base will not just throw Red Bull out the door. I know of many bars here in San Francisco that order pallets weekley of Red Bull. Yeah, they are not just going to throw them out the door cause they are mad at them. A lot people do drink Red Bull for the taste. Since I am not my 5 year old daughter, I am not going to order something based on its color. And most younger drinkers learned, don't smell your drink. Coke and Pepsi do the same thing. They have contracts with the soda guns. They have contracts in the stores. If they bought a door, you put something in it, and they will void the contract which costs the retailer up to $1-$1.50 per case ordered. The thing you are doing here Energydude, is trying to prove a point while pushing your drink. Red Bull suing bars sucks. Yes we agree. Like anyone else, if you have a contract and you don't abide by it, you have a good chance of being sued. If you are passing another drink of as your own, especialy when there is a a billion dollar companys trademark at risk, you will get sued. And if you always get other diet colas other than your ordered diet coke, then pick a new place. Thank god here in San Francisco they tell you if they don't have what you ordered.
02-14-2004, 02:40 PM
You bring up some interesting points but what RB has done really seems illegal. They tell bar owners, Hey I will give you xyz for free if we are exclusive. That is called restrict of trade and RB has been doing it all over the country. RB and their current domination is largely due to improper trade practices. These so called exclusive contracts are not worth the paper they are written on but I face it every day. RB freaks out when they see SumPoosie in the same bar. They have gone back to dozens of accounts and offered all kinds of things to have SumPoosie thrown out. Sorry, that is wrong. If RB is so great why are they doing things like this? Every bar has 5 to 10 different Vodka's why not a few energy drinks...... why because RB doesn't want to give anyone choice. SumPoosie was invented for bartenders and waitresses. Now after every drink order they can kindly ask, " Hey would you like SumPoosie with that?" At a bar it's conversation and fun. The product works and taste great. What is wrong with offering choice, you may say nothing, but RB doesn't see it that way and is attempting to resrict trade. I tell club owners all the time no one gives anything for free. Your real cost is the fact you are not selling additional energy drinks costing you 2 to 10 times what RB gave you up front. It is hard to feel sorry for someone who is playing the same game but cheating. :cool:
First post but have been reading for quite sometime.
This energydude is either; a product pusher, loves to hear himself talk, does not listen to others, or a combo of all.
Many of posts he asks questions and recieves answers then it seems the answer does not register with him while talking up is product.
I have noticed that many people are really tired of his "pushyness" ...in fact to the extreme of signing pledges to never respond, acknowledge, or answer any of his post. ... not surprising. I could go on about this guy, but I am not going to waste anymore of my or your time, hes just not worth it.
I am going to comment on this topic cause I did work for RB a year ago in another state. Other peoples product in RBs property (cooler) think about it...you will NEVER see coke or pepsi in the others coolers at a c-store. Ask for a COKE at a KC,PizzaHut, or TacoBell, they will ask you if Pepsi is ok. same thing E-dude, companys are having to clarify to avoid reprecussions.
Ron has made many awesome points. One is contracts are binding and people/companys do sue over breich of them. Clubs and stores are not going to kick out RB and try to replace it with a competitor. Trust me, I have lived it. the #7 account in the region I worked in, did punish RB for 3 weeks w/the kicking out tactic...guess what RB WAS back in and not for the look or color or smell or the competition were matching the sales numbers cause they werent, but for the LOST SALES.
In turn the account directly across the st. that was the "King of Beers" account that had not had RB in 2 yrs came aboard and 4x the sales of the (360 / 2)energy drink.
My point is RB has a very valid point in doing what they do... protecting their investments. club owners can and do carry competion ..but eventually realize that RB is the only one that makes them money, RB only gets involved w/the exclusive contracts when they have seen "passing off". RB does make it worth the clubs while to sign this "contract". The payoff is much greater that what the club would have made off the competitions profits.
So it just seems to me (reading between the lines)that this e-dude is mad cause HE was kicked out of a club for having HIS product in RBs cooler in an EXCLUSIVE RB account. Is it right for the club to be exclusive? MAYBE
Is it right for this e-dude to have His product riding the coattails and using RB equipment? NO
Lastly, I am sure that this e-dude will read this, not digest anything (what I have gathered from past posts of his), then respond with a "push" of his product, then try a little name calling or an attempted insult, then end it with a cutsie lil "get sum" quote and a "GREAMLIN".
Thank you for everyones time.
I am out for now.
02-15-2004, 11:08 AM
KWRP.... I think I know why this was your first post. You did nothing but prove my point. There is no such thing as exclusive contracts and in most states are illegal and called "restrict of trade"! This is not like an open bid process that Coke and Pepsi go through for exclusive contracts this is, "Hey I will give you 5k in cash and 5k in radio if we have an exclusive. You know and everyone on this board knows RB does that. "Restrict of Trade" RB is in Myrtle Beach right now buying tables and bringing in all kinds of stuff and telling club owners "Hey its free just don't sell anyone else's product" Who does this???? RB is the only company I know doing it.
It is wrong and in many cases illegal. RB was just thrown out of a club in Jacksonville because the RB manger couldn't understand that the club is selling 6 cases a week of SumPoosie at 5 bucks a bottle. Just 6 cases is netting the club owner
35k a year why would they go "exclusive" with RB for 5k up front! Plus do you really want RB telling you who you can sell what to? One of the largest liquor store chains in Texas sells RB and SumPoosie and guess which one sells better......yep SumPoosie. Proudly an AMERICAN MADE PRODUCT. tongue.gif
oh man this guy (e-dude) is off his rocker!!! How did I prove your point?
You sound a little bitter!
First, IS your product "Made in the USA"? from the ink on the bottles, to the ingredients used to make the product?...it may be "bottled" in the USA ...but is it "entirely" AMERICAN. Also, not many "foriegn" products are made across the pond, as are "american" products made here.
Second, RB is not forcing owners to accept this "brib". If they accecpt that just means either you didnt close the sale with this account or the account doesnt believe they can sell your product, or the account likes a bird in the hand!
If I were in your shoes, I would be out trying to "counter" RB insteed of posting messages here.
Lastly and on the previous note, the only thing you did was post another message here bashing another product and trying to push yours! Well Done...... (that was being facetious).
Well done in PROVING everyone elses opinion they have of you....which is not good (not being facetious).
02-15-2004, 06:38 PM
Bribes???? So you think that is legal??? You think some big foreign company passing bribes around to keep out competition is ok? You are really not making much sense. SumPoosie is Manufactured...hence...Made in the USA! Even the bottle itself is made in America. It just cracks me up that many of you see it as no big deal yet millions of jobs are going over seas and it is harder and harder for Americans to find good paying jobs. But who cares right, you have a job...for now. I guess I just expected a little more American pride on this board. :(
02-15-2004, 11:22 PM
No one is talking down Coke or Pepsi for paying millions of dollars to colleges for the rights to have their product in the school. Its not Red Bull forcing these contracts, its the bar owners who take it in. You can use your magic calculator and figure out ther a bar will earn $35K in a year if he keeps your product, but a real figure might show him loosing $50K from not selling Red Bull. I have tried your product, its not bad. But as much as you want to think, it is not setting the world on fire, or stores. I am sure it sells well in places, but the way you are saying it is like me saying I am kicking Coke and Pepsi out of every store and outselling them everywere I go just because I started selling Sprechers. Hey, Sprechers, freaking awsome line of sodas. But it is just not going to break contracts with bars, stores, or schools. If they own a cooler, and a store signs a contract to keep only their item in a cooler, that is up to the store owner. Bring in a cooler of your own. It sucks that Red Bull is #1, and that they have more than enough money to ensure they stay there. But if there were not obsticals in the road, it would not make beverage sales fun.
02-16-2004, 12:15 AM
Ron.... you have me scratching my head! Sometimes I don't even know where to start with you. How in earth is a bar going to lose 50k in RB sales if they are selling SumPoosie? It's called variety its called CHOICE. Supermarkets do not have exclusives they sell many brands because it appeals to more customers..... ahhhhhhhh! APPEALS TO MORE CUSTOMERS!!! One out of 10 in a bar drink RB what about the rest????? Give them a choice. The problem that I have is RB is restricting trade. The contracts Pepsi and Coke get are on bid. There is no bid at these bars and RB's practices of giving them items or money for exclusivity is wrong and illegal.....yes or no. Come on Ron is it wrong.......yes or no.
02-16-2004, 07:32 AM
It looks like everyone has one opinion and Energydude his own.
Looks to me like Energydude is starting to either lose sales or no other new place will buy from him.
If every single bar in every single country only sold one type of whisky, gin, vodka, wine, tequila..... they would have no customers. Alcohol in a high percentage of drinkers has a very loyal following. Alcohol is an acquired taste. Soft drinks on the other hand are not.
As to is it illegal to have exclusive contracts...consider this Energydude, if you are a bar owner you don't have to sign anything in the first place. If you do then you must follow the contract rules. It's as simple as that. If it just so happens that everywhere you go you cant sell your drink it's because you have been beaten to it.
I sell like you do a drink. If I speak to maybe 100 people, out of those I will be told no by at least 98%. I accept it. It's bound to happen. I move on and try someone else.
IT'S ABOUT TIME YOU DID THE SAME INSTEAD OF COMPLAINING ALL THE TIME.
if what your saying you truly believe in (bids) then go out and try to out bid RB.
I dont see the cola comp. Ron was speaking of (specher) here complaining that they cant get into Colleges, or Hospitals etc. where there are contracts/bids with Coke n Pepsi.
So again we all say, stop complaining about "the man keeping you down" and get some inecitive and hit the streets a sellin!!
02-16-2004, 09:34 AM
Xtreme....... it is simple minded responses like the last one you gave that makes me go crazy. You write these responses and I wonder if you read what you say before you push "Add Reply". I am not complaining and I sell plenty of product. All I ask for is fair competition, not illegal trade practices. RB's exclusionary tactics are unfair and often illegal is my point. Many bars do not offer a variety of energy drinks because RB has them thrown out. If their product is so great... why do this? Paying a bar to keep other products out is restrict of trade!!!!!!! Can you imagine Microsoft paying to keep everyone elses browser off their computer????? It would be ILLEGAL! GET THE POINT!
02-16-2004, 09:36 AM
ONCE AGAIN KWRB..... NOT THE POINT!!!!!!
02-16-2004, 10:02 AM
I will only ask you this energydude;
How many bars sell more than one brand of fruit juice?
How may bars sell more than one brand of fizzy drink?
I will answer it for you, none. Each bar sells only one brand of any non alcoholic product. Why? it's very simple, drink takes up space which most bars do not have enough of.
If I want lets say a Coke and the bar only sells Pepsi so be it, if I don't like it I can go to another bar. That's the choice I have. Not every bar sells Red Bull otherwise you would be selling nothing.
If Red Bull is the energy drink sold in a bar I have to decide to buy it or drink something else or go somewhere else.
It just so happens that at the moment the most common energy drink on the market is Red Bull. And the reason for that is they spend allot of money in making sure their product is widely available. That is something all the rest of us energy drink manufacturers have to achieve if indeed it's what we want to do.
Enerdrinks (who I work for) competes every single day with Red Bull in one way or another, we win some we lose some. That's how it works. If Red Bull has a stronghold in a region we don't touch it with a barge pole, we look for somewhere that they are not so good in. Then once that region is established enough we look where we couldn't before. It's for us as simple as that.
Don't forget Red Bull is also almost the only company that actually spends money so people remember their name. That is why they are number one, that is why they sell more drink, that is why they are in more bars and places than anyone else. If it's for any other reason then beat them at their own game.
It is just sad that you seem to be the only one on BevNET that doesn't realise this, unless I am very much mistaken.
How about it if there are topics on the board where we add something instead of tooing and throwing with you all the time?
02-16-2004, 10:22 AM
First of all you are right Xtreme I wish more people would bring interesting topics to the board for discussion..... I am all for it. It may be difficult Toby1 can barely tie his shoes and you want him to start an interesting topic? ;)
Secondly, not my point, not my point! RB is restricting trade yes or no....yes or no.
Member # 1203
Rate Member posted 02-16-2004 09:36 AM
ONCE AGAIN KWRB..... NOT THE POINT!!!!!!
Posts: 298 | From: Cleveland, OH | Registered: Oct 2002 | Logged:
great rebutle there e-dude....you sound like a child!
my reply was a very valid one and I am starting to agree with EXTREME on the note he made that WE all need to bring something to this board insteed of ARGUING with a "closed minded crybaby" like yourself!
MY OFFICAL NOTICE: I am not replying nor answering to any of ENERGYDUDES posts again.
02-16-2004, 11:00 AM
KWRB you will be sorely missed :( the 8 brilliant post that you brought to this board to help inform and educate us will be forever enshrined in our memory.
I guess when you can't defend yourself it is best to cut and run huh?!?! ;)
02-16-2004, 11:14 AM
I have said I would no longer respond to any of energydudes posts but unfortunately what he says sometimes needs to be argued, but not any more. I am tiered of him thinking that only he can be right and the rest of us wrong. This is a board for everyone to have a say.
Energydude PLEASE stop advertising and thinking we are all fools, or even better start up your own board. I'm sure the people that want to read what you normally say will be queue up at your door asking for the web site address.
02-16-2004, 11:48 AM
Xtreme I am not advertising anything. I have said SumPoosie is a great energy drink and that is it. I am not selling on this board at all that is Ebay's job. It just stuns me that you will attack me and not address the issues. If you can't defend your stance then step back if you can then step up. Coco has no problem doing it. Read his post......very calm, very intelligent every time.
On this board I guess it is evil to say you love a product, I have attempted to stick with issues and people get frustrated because they lack the ability to express themselves or their theories.
I have asked over and over again isn't it restrict of trade what RB is doing at bars and nightclubs across the country and I can't get one straight answer........... :confused:
Xtreme if the kitchen gets too hot stop on out. ;)
02-16-2004, 12:13 PM
NO, and sort of energydude. Many bars only want to carry Red Bull because they don't have time to train their bartenders to learn new drinks, or do they have time to have bartenders explain the new drinks to customers. I have sold other drinks, including my current one, were I have been able to get into bars that do and don't sell Red Bull. And there are bars that say, Hey I only order Red Bull cause I move so much of it, and oh yeah, they give me an extra 10 cases per month. Thats the bars choice, not mine or Red Bulls. For your product, that poses a problem because your marketability limits you to mainly bars and places like that. But its not like this is something that just started, they have had this program going for sometime. And the loosing $50K a year for a bar, they are not just going to replace all sales with Sum Poosie. There will be people who will not order that drink, or go elsewere because they do not serve their drink anymore. If your stat is true, 1 out of 10 people will drink a mixed drink with an energy drink, 8 out of thoes 80 people will want a Red Bull drink and the other 2 our of 20 will not care. Of the 8 who drink Red Bull, 3 of them will switch if there is a promo going on, because it means free or cheaper drinks. Sum Poosie, great or not, does not carry a name that will position its self to be at the top of the game, nor does it have the marketability to have the drink in your local bar, and the store you shop in for grocereys, and the local mom and pop were you pick up some milk, and your TV at home were you watch movies. For you, if sucks that Red Bull can demand these things because that is a huge part of your busines (Bars), but thats the rules of the game.
02-16-2004, 01:04 PM
Ron....... you really do not know what you are talking about. I have owned bars since 1982 when you were learning to walk. Where would you like me to start?
02-16-2004, 05:11 PM
ok ok ok.
Now that EXTREME has broke the silence....now its my turn.
Dustin Stemmer(edude), would you step back and read what you write! It doesnt matter what we write you are right and we are wrong. maybe someone close to you that you trust should read these posts/replys/rebutles to you and maybe they can explain that you are a closed minded, hypocritcal, whining, elitest. Is this your sales tactic when and IF you are in the field selling? I believe it is since you are not with any sort of reputable company.
This is all I am saying to you and dont give me the line about heat and kitchen and not defending ourselves.
I am done with you on these boards!!
oh, and please, oh please, let me know when you are in BOSTON ... I would love to continue these conversation in person!!!
02-16-2004, 05:46 PM
I think that is your problem right there, you are trying to sell like it is still 1982, and I was already walking in 82, not by much, but was walking. And what is your point about owning a bar? Since you owned one in 82, that means Sum Poosie will out sell Red Bull everywere? You keep going on and on about missing points, well, I am missing yours. About 95% of the people here on this post do not work for Red Bull. But 99% of them all agree that Red Bull sells to much and it way to profitable for a bar or store to toss them out. Besides that, your point is you have owned a bar(s) for many years. I think anyone in sales knows that just because you own a busines, doesnt mean you should run one.
02-16-2004, 08:37 PM
I can understand your frustration Toby1 but it really is about the issues and not me. You get angry because you have trouble defending your position. You have turned this for some reason in to an attack on me. All I want to know from you or Ron or anyone on the board is this. RB is giving money and gifts to clubs to keep others out. Does this activity bother anyone because in most circles it is called restrict of trade. Microsoft can't do it, Intel, Dell, nobody. Does it bother anyone that RB is doing it across the country? If the answer is no just say so. I just find it kind of silly that on one hand they give out gifts and on the other they are ready to cut you with a knife. :rolleyes:
02-16-2004, 10:30 PM
we have all said no. Microsoft made it impossible to add other software and other devices that they deemed competition. It was not an agreement between Microsoft and the computer buyer. Red Bull is giving free cases to the owners as a reward for keeping out the other drinks. Sometimes out of the whole establishment, sometimes out of shelves. Gatoraid pays $$ to stores that keep the shelves only filled with gatoraid. Water companies do it, tabacco, coke, pepsi. If it were legal here in CA, Bud Miller and Coors would as well. No one else here sees it as a huge problem. It would make certain things easier if they never did it. But hey, give them credit for reaching that level. I know if I ever do, I will be more than happy.
02-16-2004, 10:56 PM
Ron I guess you don't get it... what they are doing is illegal it is called restrict of trade. You are not allowed to throw money around and toss out competition "that" is my point. You are not allowed to say here bar owner here is a new table a new chair and 5,000 dollars its for you now sign this contract and don't allow in others.
RON THAT IS ILLEGAL!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW???
It amazes me you can't even say someone is doing something wrong when you know they are???? :confused:
02-16-2004, 10:58 PM
Sorry... I had a flashback! ;)
02-16-2004, 11:19 PM
If it was so illegal...why would RB, Gatorade, Poland Springs, Coke, Pepsi, Bud, Miller, (I am not going to keep listing) practice this sales/marketing tactic?
I believe you are just bitter that you cant sell like the RB salesmen sell! You are loosing accounts/the battle and you are pissed so you convince yourself that what RB and every other large company does is illegal.
ITS NOT!! theres my answer ...you are fabricating the illegalness (is that a word?) of this activity to justify the failure of you, your sales team, and your product.
02-17-2004, 03:27 AM
I FULLY AGREE WITH TOBY1
02-17-2004, 09:25 AM
Uhhhhhmmmmm..... Coke and Pepsi go though a bidding process with accounts like McDonalds or Burger King. No Company that I am familiar with walks in and demands every other competitors product thrown out for some favors and cash. I can't speak for Spain but I can for the USA. That is not how it is supposed to be done. RB was very cool in the 90's but it is 2004 and their tactics are getting more extreme. All it does is limit customer choice and ultimatley cost the bar owner money.
02-17-2004, 10:01 AM
Only thing I can suggest if you think it is illegal is to file an official complaint against Red Bull.
As far as Coke, Pepsi or any other drinks manufacturer not selling to certain if not the majority of locations licences, in Spain this is not an uncommon thing. Ultimately the location owner knows exactly what prices he will have to pay because certain prices are laid out in the contract.
So if owner of location was paying $xxxx amount last year and offered $xxxx this year he knows exactly if he will gain or lose. He can then make a choice what he would like to sell.
Let's just hope for your sake that if Coke or Pepsi have contracts with location owners in the USA that they don't demand that their energy drink brand because it makes part of their port folio has to be the only one sold. THAT IS HAPENING IN SPAIN.
As I said previously we win some we lose some, we may not like it but life goes on and we get on with it right or wrong. And by the way we win more than we lose.
So I say again if you feel so strongly that it is illegal file an official complaint.
And I hope this small input from me is enough to satisfy you that WE at Enerdrinks are not happy about this situation either.
02-17-2004, 10:05 AM
Now if you don't mind I will get back to what I do best which is promote and sell Xtrem.
I suggest you do the same and promote and sell Sum Poosie instead of hoping that if we all agree with you that somehow it will persuade Red Bull to call you and say
"I tell you what, we will leave the entire state so you can sell Sum Poosie"
02-17-2004, 12:15 PM
Please post the busines law that states exactly what is illegal here. I see nothing unlawful here. What about in stores were Coke puts in a fountain machine? They sign a contract to have only Coke on fountain. Gatoraid, Coke, Pepsi, Desani, Evion, Aquafina, etc. all do the same thing. Red Bull is not doing anything illegal. If you think the only difference is Coke and Pepsi bidding for it, then I will go out and offer a bar $1 for the rights to my drink. Now it will be a bidding war, and Red Bull is no longer on the wrong side of the law. End of discution. Unfortunatly Energydude, you are the only one here that thinks this is wrong. So either all of us are idiots and you are the only one who can see things clearly. Or maybe the majority understands it here. You take your pick.
02-17-2004, 12:27 PM
Again you are correct. Red Bull, like some many other beverages, is not doing anything illegal with their exclusive contracts. As far as an "open bidding process" this is not a legal formality, this is a way for an establishment to pit one vendor against another to see who will give them the most value. Certain states have laws regarding liquor and paying accounts anything. However, it is not illegal for a bar owner to throw out a beer or liquor brand if they choose not to carry it.
This whole restrict of trade argument is a fabrication. I agree it is frustrating for the underdog, but Red Bull was an underdog too and has managed to take it to the next level.
Bottom line, it all comes down to the account and its ownership. If they choose not to carry any other energy drink, and they choose to accept support from Red Bull in return; it is their choice. Hate to burst Energydude's bubble but there are plenty of accounts that are exclusive with Red Bull solely for their love for the brand, and a lot of them say they have a contract to avoid dealing with overzealous me-too brands. Do you honestly think Red Bull could afford to buy out every single account to keep them exclusive?
Face it, 90% of the time people want to do business with people they like, and contrary to Energydude's beliefs; a lot of people like Red Bull.
02-17-2004, 09:19 PM
Ron I hope one day you own and run a business so you can really gain some expanded business knowledge. Coco who is buying RB for its taste?
This thread is for gripes and I have one for companies that offer gifts and bogus contracts for exclusivity. Ask any business attorney if what they are doing is fair and legal. Just ask...
02-18-2004, 12:57 AM
Read this Ron and Coco...........hmmmmmmm
enough said! ;)
02-18-2004, 02:25 AM
Man, Energydude, you really crack me up. First off you have made no point, the article you referenced is regarding trade laws in the European Union, which has much more stringent regulations than the US. Last time I checked, we were discussing the energy drink business within the US.
It amuses me to no end that you incessantly bash all things European, and then turn around and try to use a set of European laws to make a case for yourself. You're reaching...
Lastly, let me ask you one question: do you honestly think that Red Bull sold 1.6 billion cans last year and nobody likes the taste? Whatever delusions you have to sustain to justify your current livelihood are your business not mine, but let's be serious. Whether you are willing to believe it or not, a lot of people love Red Bull; the product, the brand, the lifestyle, the image, and the taste. Nothing you could ever concoct in your amazingly creative mind will ever change that reality. The numbers don't lie.
02-18-2004, 07:09 AM
I LOVE THE TASTE OF RED BULL!
And Sum Poosie doesn't work! It's just sugar water and should not be called an energy drink.
02-18-2004, 08:21 AM
Coco rebates to force out the competition is unfair trade practice here in the USA also. If you don't know that ask any lawyer in any state you are in except Alaska! ;)
02-18-2004, 12:34 PM
Article about Europe? Europe? What happened to made in the good old US of A? We have been talking about domestic sales and your argument is what is going on in another continent? You are stretching. As far as busines ownership, I have helped out in the family busines (7-11) and helped manage corporate 7-11 stores for Southland. Also helped run a distributor for a few years. What point are you trying to make there. Listen, you have no legs left to stand on for this argument. I won't just slam anything you say on this board, even though some others do. But you can't honestly think you have made any good points. I asked you to show me business law codes to show what Red Bull is doing wrong, and you show me a beverage article involving other companies in other continents. You tell me to run a business, and I have. Many people I know do drink Red Bull for taste. You cant just say something is ****ty and no one will drink it for taste because you don't like the flavor your self. I love DIET COKE, best tasting drink on the market. You and 10 others may agree, but would it make it right if 100 others said Diet Coke taste terrible and no one could ever possibly drink it for flavor. Energy, look for another topic. You are done with this post, you are only digging a deeper hole for yourself.
02-19-2004, 03:04 AM
So you think business law and unfair trade practices is any different in the USA !!!! You have to be kidding the laws are very very simular in this country and Europe. But I guess it doesn't matter how much proof you get you want to believe what you want to believe. How do those Rose color glasses fit???
02-19-2004, 11:37 AM
There are some similar laws, and some different. But again, I ask you to show me the buiness code which shows that Red Bull is breaking the law. You can't do it can you? You try and sell your drink here, then go and try to sell it in Sweeden, see what differences you have. Listen, Red Bull is like the Yankees and we are like Tampa Bay. Hey, we will will a few battles, but in the cource of it all, we may be a player in the game, but the Yankees have way to much money and the ability to go out and do what they want. So once again I will leave it at this. Show me the law, don't talk about it, don't bring up forign trade practices. Show me the law in the US that shows Red Bull is being unlawful. If not, then just admit you have zero credibility left in the argument.
02-20-2004, 11:48 PM
edude has awakin RON!! I love it when RON gets going!
heres the real point and it was said aways back on this thread....
Clubs and bars sell BOOZE! not energy drinks!
If edude wants to have a pleathura of energydrinks at an on premise location, maybe he should open an energydrink bar and sell tons of "VARIETYS" of energydrinks with only a few SKUs of liquor.
edude...there is not enough room, time to sell, or patience for knockoffs like your drink in bars. The owners are selling the best one (RB) that WILL make them tons more $$$ than anything else out there (SUMp), GETTING PAID TO DO SO AND KEEPING INVENTORY DOWN.
Lastly, go to a bar and start a "bid" with RB and the owner, they WILL win everytime, so just suck it up and realize your product is very limited to where you can sell it (so u compete w/RB) and THAT is killing your business.
Heres an idea!! make a HEALTY drink for the kiddies to compete w/ Coke n Pepsi in the schools! then you can come back and Bitch that it is SO unfair, trade practices, contracts, exclusive, BLAH BLAH BLAH!!
Man you are one disliked (e)dude here! heres the REAL question .. What are your feelings bout that?
02-20-2004, 11:49 PM
Ron.... you have got to be kidding me. I will make it easy for you. Go to Google Search and type this in......"Unfair Trade Practice Law" you will get case law on top of case law. There are different laws in each state but there is plenty of Federal Law to keep you busy. If you want I will copy the first 50 pages for you to look over in your spare time. Simply provide an address and I will get you started.
Have you ever just stopped and thought why doesn't Budwieser the King of Beers just pay bars and throw everyone else out??? It is ILLEGAL!!! You may not give gifts and cash and demand exclusivity. Please do some reading and ask "any" business lawyer in the state of CA and he or she will tell you since I can't convince you with FACTS. smile.gif
02-21-2004, 08:45 AM
It is the bar owners discretion who is in his/her location.
There are many of bar/club in Boston, Key West, and Atlanta (where I have lived) that do not carry different lines of alcohol (YES EVEN BUD!!).
Its up to the owner!!
Just because they accept "free" money from RB and dont want your product, that is NOT illegal!
edude, you are beginning to sound like a preschooler, I have heard a 4-5 year old say,
"zebras have stripes cause their mommy painted them" they truly believe that and will do everything in their power to make YOU believe it as well!
Just because you say so, doesnt make it true.
Grow up! .... this "ZEBRA" has moved on!
02-21-2004, 10:11 AM
Toby you are simply ignoring the facts. I am not saying the bar owner is doing wrong it is RB and the paying of cash and giving of gifts that is unfair trade. I gave you the info on how to look it up if you choose not to read it that is up to you. Atlanta, Boston, etc... you can not give cash and gifts to gain market advantage over competition. That is the law. The fact that you even think it is ethical or lawful to give gifts and cash and have competitors thrown out is unbelievable.
02-21-2004, 10:21 AM
This is a good place for all of you to start. If you need more help let me know. Ron there is about 1200 pages of case law just in the last 3 years. Happy Reading. ;)
02-21-2004, 01:27 PM
Yes, please give me help. I see a bunch of federal cases, but nothing pertaning to what Red Bull is doing. Secondly, don't try to use beer houses as "since they can't do it, its illegal for Red Bull to do it also." No, there is law that forbids any company selling Alcohal, or Alcohalic merchandice to just give it away. They MUST charge 6% above their cost on any item worth over .25 cents. It all goes back to proabition and the good old quote "You owe me lock, stock, and barrel." Yeah, back in the day breweries were able to open and run their own stores, and it would obviously keep out other brands. The brewery would get the store (lock), give them beer to sell (stock) and something to sell it in (Barrel). But now there are laws that forbid that from happening. Breweries can't really go and sell direct. There are special circumstances, but I have only seen it apply to micro breweries. But they have to sell at Market price, not at discounts. Can't give shirts, or glasses, or coasters away. So when there is actual law in place, and someone stretching for an energy drink company to be unlawful, you just can't compare the two. Its like apples and oranges. Or Red Bull and Sum Poosie. Just can't compare the two. Let me ask you this, if a store tells another energy drink company that he will not take down his 3 rows of Sum Poosie because he likes the drink and wants more facings of it, does that make you now guilty of Unfair Trade Practice? No, and neither is Red Bull. There are many bars that like to sell Red Bull only. Be it by kick backs, or just dealing with one comapny. But there are many more that sell other drinks as well. So just because you can't get Sum Poosie into every bar because they like Red Bull better, doesnt mean you can slander a company. I wouldnt be surprised if they ended up sending you legal warnings.
02-21-2004, 03:02 PM
ya see edude!!
You got RON started....
I totally agree with RON. So does EVERYONE else that has posted on this thread.
I do seriously have a few questions for you edude.
*If what RB is doing is so illegal, why and how do they continue to do it?
*Why havent they been proscecuted?
*Why havent YOU taken this matter to the court system of this fine country insteed of a lil message board?
Three questions ... please just a simple answer to all would be very inlighting.
(cant wait to read your bs)
02-22-2004, 09:44 AM
There are a few energy drinks in this country that make money. RB,Rockstar,Monster, and SumPoosie....there may be others but I am not familiar with them. Why one of them have not stepped up to legal action yet is probably due to time and money. Legal action is a lengthy process and I am sure most of the above brands are focused at this point in just growing and improving distribution. Ron instead of just running off at the mouth simply ask any business attorney in your area if it is legal for a company to give gifts and cash to keep out competition. Simply ask. ;)
02-22-2004, 04:50 PM
I like how when Edude asks a question we answer it. When we ask one back, he doesnt. Did you not hear me in my last few posts. I don't believe what they are doing is wrong. I am not going to do your homework and start asking lawyers to give me free advice. You are the one that has to give us the legal feed back. No one on here believes that there is anything wrong here. I won't dispute if Sum Poosie is makeing money or not, I havent seen your books. But based on the fact that I have not seen it anywere, I am guessing if they are making money, so are about 100 other companies. You have to remember, the bar owners and manager are agreeing to take in Red Bull and get kick backs from it. There is nothing wrong with that. Should Chevron be sued because they don't allow Arco gas in their pumps? Can we sue McDonnalds because they don't allow Pepsi in there? Can we sue Sabbaros pizza chain because they can only carry Pepsi products, or beverages with their company slogan on them? No, this is the way busines is done. You your self has said many times if you had a bar (which you may or may not have one) that you would not allow Red Bull in there. Aren't you guilty of keeping out the other drinks. If Red Bull was pulling back orders and said "no, we will only sell to you if you only carry Red Bull, and you must sign this contract the keep out all other drinks." then fine, there is probably something wrong with that. But Red Bull will still sell to all locations, they are just saying "if you would like to make us your exclusive energy drink, we will reward you with X-number of free cases per month." Nothing wrong with that, just good thinking on Red Bulls part.
02-22-2004, 05:56 PM
A quote from RON----
"If Red Bull was pulling back orders and said "no, we will only sell to you if you only carry Red Bull, and you must sign this contract the keep out all other drinks." then fine, there is probably something wrong with that. But Red Bull will still sell to all locations, they are just saying "if you would like to make us your exclusive energy drink, we will reward you with X-number of free cases per month." Nothing wrong with that, just good thinking on Red Bulls part."
edude, here is a few more questions that we want you to answer, along with the others that you seem to ignore
*is RON correct in the above qoute?
*would you do what RON qouted in the above qoute to increase your business?
so now thats 5 questions that we wnat you to answer.
02-22-2004, 09:40 PM
Ron I am not going to argue with a 24 year old. I told you where to find the info and even gave you the link. You cannot give gifts and money to exclude competition plain and simple. I am sure it is a matter of time before their way of doing business is altered or tested in court. Just remember for years Kmart and Sears were the top retailers. RB is on top now but I think people will start buying American more and more. SumPoosie has the new girls coming out next month so I am sure that will continue to help grow the brand.
02-22-2004, 11:32 PM
QOUTES FROM EDUDE ----
posted 02-16-2004 09:34AM
Xtreme....... it is simple minded responses like the last one you gave that makes me go crazy.
posted 02-16-2004 10:22 AM
First of all you are right Xtreme I wish more people would bring interesting topics to the board for discussion..... I am all for it. It may be difficult Toby1 can barely tie his shoes and you want him to start an interesting topic?
posted 02-16-2004 01:04 PM
Ron....... you really do not know what you are talking about. I have owned bars since 1982 when you were learning to walk.
posted 02-22-2004 09:40 PM
Ron I am not going to argue with a 24 year old.
THEN HE PROVES HIS HYPOCRITCALNESS IN THIS POST
posted 02-16-2004 11:48 AM
Xtreme I am not advertising anything. I have said SumPoosie is a great energy drink and that is it. I am not selling on this board at all that is Ebay's job. It just stuns me that you will attack me and not address the issues.
WE ATTACK HIM!! SURE ....
AND HE IS NOT ADVERTISING OR SELLING? SURE....
posted 02-22-2004 09:40 PM
SumPoosie has the new girls coming out next month so I am sure that will continue to help grow the brand.
edude ...your credibility is out the window pal!
I just wonder if your accounts catch you in lies too? maybe thats why RB is kickin your A$$!
peoples word STILL means alot ...even today.
obviously you dont think so.
02-23-2004, 04:20 AM
Posted by TOBY1
"peoples word STILL means alot ...even today.
obviously you dont think so."
02-23-2004, 10:10 AM
Toby I have stated a few things about SumPoosie I feel make the product different and exciting. Most of the time now I try not to even say the name so I won't be accused of pushing the product. Stating some of the new things like the new Bottle Models come out April 5th is just informative. You mean to tell me you don't want to meet the girls in Atlantis in the Bahamas March 29-31? Ron just keeps yelling RB can give gifts and cash and kick you out and that is ok!!
He simply doesn't know what he is talking about so I guess it does get a little frustating. Then again when I was 24 I thought Farrah Fawcet was a babe.
02-23-2004, 11:51 AM
Edude, what you don't notice is that we have all posted many questions for you, and you can not answer a single one of them. You try to turn them into a comeback instead of an answer. You still can not show me the law that shows what Red Bull is doing is wrong. Your answer was, "go look it up for yourself" I say Im not going to do your homework, prove me wrong. You couldnt, you answer was "Im not going to argue with a 24 year old." Age has nothing to do with this. What, because you are older means you don't have to answer questions. Because you are older means you have the ability to just spat whatever you want and even though you are the only person on the whole board that feels Red Bull is in the wrong, everyone else in your mind is an idiot. Well, maybe I am wrong. Maybe age has a lot to do with it. Maybe you are quite older and belong in a retierment facility were you can get your medication to keep the senial thoughts to your self. But hey, I guess we are all wrong and Edude is right. And yes, his drink Sum Poosie is the best drink in the world, even though none of us can find it in the market. Its the best, most popular drink out there, even though only 3 other people I have talked to have heard about it. 2 were affiliated with a distributor that already dropped the brand, the other I send a web link to a while ago. But yes, must be the best on the market. And even though I am 24, and yet, many others on this board who are older than me back up what I am saying. I must be a young kid that has no idea in this busines or this board. Thank you Edude. Thank you for setting me straight. Answering questions would have keep you from looking so stupid weeks ago. But in your infinate wisdom, you saw the light in looking ignorant. Keep on selling Sum Poosie. It just makes all the rest of us look better.
02-23-2004, 12:02 PM
"Toby I have stated a few things about SumPoosie I feel make the product different and exciting. Most of the time now I try not to even say the name so I won't be accused of pushing the product. Stating some of the new things like the new Bottle Models come out April 5th is just informative. You mean to tell me you don't want to meet the girls in Atlantis in the Bahamas March 29-31? Ron just keeps yelling RB can give gifts and cash and kick you out and that is ok!!
He simply doesn't know what he is talking about so I guess it does get a little frustating. Then again when I was 24 I thought Farrah Fawcet was a babe."
What does Atlantis, Farrah, and you being 24, 50 years ago have to do with ANY of the questions that all of us have asked? RON is correct in saying you need to be in an old folks home taking meds for your wacked-out mind!!
lets see if you can follow directions.
1)POP your meds
2)read our questions
3)come up with an answer and not a "comeback"
4)type it out on this board
how hard is that? or maybe your pal "ice" can do it for you.
02-23-2004, 01:57 PM
Ron, Toby I did look at the link that edude provided and it is really quite interesting. There is case law after case law and all of it points to edude being right. By law you may not give gifts and cash to gain an unfair market advantage and it is all in the link he provided. I know I will get garbage for taking his side but he is right and it is all there to read in black and white. I am just starting on all the pages but google is a great place to start under "unfair trade practice law" in fact many of the cases are from California. It will take a few weeks to go over most of it but it is very interesting.
02-23-2004, 02:06 PM
Ron- simply read the second paragraph if you still want to argue than I think you just want to argue. I am sorry but I believe edude is right.
"On this point".
02-23-2004, 05:26 PM
Heidi, You are so right......Yo are going to get GARBAGE over your agreence with this fabricated nonsense.
In that link you had attached it was discussing CELL PHONES and being sold to consumers BELOW cost.
It is comparing apples to .......Prime Rib!!
Nothing in common with this discussion and that link but the word consumer.
One more time edude and heidi, if an establishment (bar) wants to carry just RB or 180 or sumpoosie or impluse or whatever, and the supplier/distributor wants to reward to owner for that discussion then there is nothing wrong with that!!!
For heavens sake, COKE has done it for many years before the energy drink era. Dont you see COKE coasters, signs, umbrellas, etc. in bars. They have ONE soda on their gun!!! not a "CHOICE".
What is the difference? I dont hear Pepsi crying and filing lawsuits on Cole against "unfair practices" or trying to squash their business.
Lets move on and you two really need to spend more time selling and less time researching/crying/continuing this topic ...etc.
02-23-2004, 06:03 PM
Thank you Toby. Mr. and Mrs. Energy, please spend your time in the streets pushing your brand and not on this board. You have not made a single point stick, either one of you. Mrs. Energy, great case law, all of which has nothing to do with what is going on here today. Red Bull is keeping the market up, not soliciting at an unfair price or advantage. They even keep the wholesalers selling at the same price as distributors. When the wholesalers cut a deal over seas, Red Bull fixed it. That sounds pretty fair. Red Bull has not done anything wrong with any bar. They give the owners a choice. And it is an offer they can refuse if they feel like it. Red Bull says, just like Coke and Pepsi, if you make us your choice, we will reward you back in terms of merchandice. Isn't that the same sort of thing with your Sum Poosie nights? You come in with your girls and have a huge night for Sum Poosie at a bar. I bet you wouldnt allow another energy drink to do a promo that night would you? I guess you have commited an unlawful offence. Or is it just the bars choice on what they serve and who they allow to do busines with?
02-23-2004, 06:28 PM
Ron, not sure how much more clear we can get on this....
We have backed up our points with facts and proven LEGAL actions in the industry (past and present).
The only thing that Mr and Mrs edude have done is continued making a mockery of themselves, there company and brand.
Credibility goes a LONG way in this industry, I foresee in a year or so that Sumpoosie WILL BE NO MORE! maybe sooner if this is the way that they conduct their business outside of this board.
Happy selling Ron!
02-23-2004, 07:04 PM
Ron at this point it is like beating a dead horse.
RB has not done anything wrong at any bars!!! So you have been to every bar Ron.... I don't think so. RB by giving away money and gifts does not have an unfair advantage in the market place???
I appreciate that you and Toby want to argue but facts are facts. The giving of cash and gifts to club owners is a violation of the fair competition act and I am sure it is a matter of time before it is brought to light and argued in court. Ron if you think RB giving huge amounts of cash and gifts to club owners in not an unfair advantage than you need to be a little more seasoned. ;)
02-23-2004, 07:18 PM
"Ron at this point it is like beating a dead horse."
EDUDE, FOR ONCE YOU ARE RIGHT...TRY TO DEBATE WITH YOU IS GETTING REALLY OLD
"RB has not done anything wrong at any bars!!! So you have been to every bar Ron.... I don't think so."
OH...AND YOU HAVE BEEN TO EVERY BAR AS WELL ... YOU ARE PROVING OUR POINT
"RB by giving away money and gifts does not have an unfair advantage in the market place???"
AGAIN, COKE HAS DONE THIS PRACTICE FOR YEARS!! I DONT SEE ANY LAWSUIT ON THE BOOKS AGAINST COKE, SO WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?
"I appreciate that you and Toby want to argue but facts are facts. The giving of cash and gifts to club owners is a violation of the fair competition act and I am sure it is a matter of time before it is brought to light and argued in court."
IF YOUR RIGHT (WHICH YOUR NOT!!)...IT WILL CHANGE HOW BUSINESS IS DONE IN THE ON-PREMISE MKT FOREVER.
"Ron if you think RB giving huge amounts of cash and gifts to club owners in not an unfair advantage than you need to be a little more seasoned."
AS USUAL YOU END IT WITH SLANDER OR A PUT DOWN.
THE ONLY THING YOU HAVE DONE IS BE ARGUMENTATIVE, NO FACTS SHOWN, JUST YOUR TEARS, AND A BUNCH OF WHINING ALONG WITH YOU OPINION. THATS RIGHT YOUR OPINION, BECAUSE YOU ARE OLDER THAN US AND YOU GIVE YOUR OPINION, DOEST MAKE IT SO!
YOU ARE THE OLDEST BABY IVE EVER MET!! BRING SOME PERTANENT LEGAL FACTS AND LEAVE THE OPINIONS AT HOME.
02-24-2004, 12:36 AM
I gave you facts and a link to help you out and you choose to ignore it do some reading and a little less writing. That is the problem with youth today. I have been in this business 30 years and you guys think you know it all.... interesting is all I can say. What does an elder like myself know? Experience is a great teacher you guys are young and eager and that is good but take time to listen to experience, you will be surprised at what you could learn. ;)
02-24-2004, 08:08 AM
Thank you edude for that inlighting statement.
Age and experience matters very little when it comes to teaching youth of today.
CREDITABILITY goes along way pal. When you send a link that has nothing to do with the SPECIFICS of this thread (i.e. RB or drinks/on-premise) it makes your CREDITABILITY go down the toilet!
The only thing that you are proving to all of US here on this board is that you have a FACTLESS UNPROVEN OPINION.
I myself love to learn, from all types of ages/background/ethnics/experience etc. it makes me a hell-of-alot more diversified from the next person.
HOWEVER, I can pick out a BULL$HI##ER from a mile away, and you my friend are one hellava BSter!
I am not going to say I will not reply to any of your posts again....however it will become limited to the ones thAT dont smell of BULL!
02-24-2004, 08:16 AM
Once again, even though everyone else on the board agrees that Red Bull is not doing anything wrong, Edude feels his only answer is to try and cut my credibility. Never mind that you have been unable to answer any questions. Nevermind that only Mrs. Energy is the only person on your side. It is all due to my lack of experience and age. 30 years in the business doesnt mean you are good. It only means you either happened to pick up a few brands that sold along the way, or you knew people with deep pockets. Besides, like it was asked earlier, if you are so knowledgable, and Sum Poosie is selling so well, why don't you take RB to court?
02-24-2004, 08:37 AM
That is why I say you lack experience. The only two that think giving cash and gifts to keep out competition is lawful is you and Toby. Taking a company to court takes lots of time and money. You only live once try to stay out of court as much as you can. Only the lawyers get rich!
02-24-2004, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by toby1:
Heidi, You are so right......Yo are going to get GARBAGE over your agreence Hey Fred Durst! When do you guys have a new album coming out?
02-24-2004, 01:26 PM
What do you propose as a solution to Red Bull's activities - even though you have yet to prove them illegal - given that Red Bull, like most brands strong in on-premise, won't give up supporting those that support them? An open bidding process at bars for exclusivity? Do you really want that?
Right now Red Bull rewards those who choose to be loyal to their product. Would you rather have the whole on-premise industry change so that all bars will openly expect up front deals before they carry any product? (I'm aware that some do now, but I guarantee those aren't bars that you deal with.)
Or would you rather just have Red Bull disappear, so you might benefit from the niche they created. Oh, but first you'd have to wait in line behind the hundreds of other energy drinks that copied Red Bull before your company did.
02-24-2004, 07:43 PM
Coco, SumPoosie is hardly a copy of RB it doesn't look like it, smell like it, taste like it, and is packaged totally different. I guess GM is just a copy of Ford! All I want RB to stop doing is telling bar owners they will give them cash and gifts if they do not sell other brands. Is that asking too much. And if you feel doing that does not fall under unfair trade practices then you need to wake up.
02-24-2004, 10:03 PM
dude, as it has been said time and time again, this is not "unfair trade." It's perfectly legal, and it is done every day of every week of every year.
Coke and Pepsi. Gatorade and Powerade. So on and so forth. Red Bull is not forcing the bar owner to take the gifts, or to take the money.
Coke could have taken KMX and tried to bury Red Bull. But they didn't. They knew to leave that one alone.
If you spent even half the energy that you spent bitching and moaning about the other evil corporations on selling your own brand, I'm sure you could be doing a LOT better than you currently are. Seek out the clubs that aren't selling any energy drinks. Introduce them to your brand, spend some money advertising and such. Sign an exlusivity agreement. Beat Red Bull to the punch.
Take "Think Pink" and run with it. You know Sum Poosie isn't going to be sold in a lot of places, but you also know that people will know they are the same drink. Use that to your advantage. If this drink tastes as good as you claim, I see no reason why both names couldn't sell equally as well, in different venues.
02-24-2004, 10:46 PM
There are more than just me and Toby on this board saying Red Bull is ok in what they are doing. Lets take an account, they have very limmited space. You come in and say, "Hey, I will gladly give you a counter top cooler if you cary Sum Poosie. But as it has our art work on it, you can only put Sum Poosie in the cooler." Now, you have just rewarded that location for making you exclusive. Is that wrong? No. And remember, it is the bars who are going by this, not Red Bull forcing anyone to go with their programs. I just went to a hand full of bars today in Sacramento with my distributor. They all carried Red Bull, but they also had Power Horse. Now, even though Red Bull has POS up and many on-premis POS, why are there other drinks? Oh yeah, it is the bars choice, not RB's as to what can be ordered. So don't be mad at RB, its the bars that just don't want your brand. You can say you are better than RB when it works for you, and then you can say you are nothing like RB when it works. But fact is, you are an Energy Drink. Doesnt matter if you or anyone thinks it tastes, looks, smells, makes you piss, cures cancer, changes your gender, or makes you smater. You are an Energy Drink, in the same catagory as RB. If a bar only wants one drink, chances are it will be RB or Rock Star. Bars like Power Horse because they can screw the lid back on and save it for later drinks. Try that approach with yours and maybe you won't have so much energy to cry about how RB is making it hard for you to sell Sum Poosie "the best energy drink in the world"
02-25-2004, 12:14 AM
Life is too short to drink foul tasting energy drinks. I'm of a mind that makes a moogie!
02-25-2004, 09:40 AM
Ron you are so correct!
unfortunately, (well maybe not that unfortunate)
SUM people just dont get it, and because of the fact that they dont, SUM of those people WILL NOT be around much longer! (thank God)
This is all I am posting about this subject. Moving on to people wanting to SLAP me! LOL
02-25-2004, 05:19 PM
Each state has its own but the laws in California they have the California Unfair Competition Act.
This law was put in place to make sure there is a level playing ground for competition. That is just one law that is in place but each state has it's own. If after reading this you still think it is ok for a company like Red Bull to throw cash around and gifts to tempt clubs into throwing out competition than you are not reading the law. Every company from candy to beverage to whatever must abide by these type of laws. Breaking them is not enough you then have to take them to court. Red Bull should not be giving out cash and gifts to get rid of competition. Simply put it is wrong.
02-25-2004, 06:26 PM
You right, we are wrong. Topic is over with.
02-25-2004, 10:13 PM
Thank goodness it is about time you saw the light!!!! :D
02-25-2004, 10:38 PM
not me edude and heidi!!
I still wanna see the law, any law, any state, I dont care!!
Cause all you have is your OPINION right now!!
I can say that PINK ELEPHANTS FLY ...well until someone sees the thing in the air.... well ....its just FREAKIN words!!
Show ME the law, please!!
If not .... stop posting crap! cause thats all it is, until proven.
02-25-2004, 11:47 PM
Toby and Ron grow up and read!!!! Clayton Antitrust Act of 1914 READ IT !!! Here is the link and then take your thumb out of your *****.
There is the law...... now please shut up! tongue.gif
02-26-2004, 10:26 AM
ok ok edude, it seems when you are backed in a corner you bring out the ole "AGE" card!
Because your older than Ron and myself doesnt mean your smarter, it only means you have the likelyhood of becoming an Alesheimer patient.
Now to qoute a line in your lil link and explain what it means:
"The act prohibited exclusive sales contracts, local price cutting to freeze out competitors, rebates, interlocking directorates in corporations capitalized at $1 million or more in the same field of business, and intercorporate stock holdings."
Got news for ya pal. This is refering to chain retailers, or Grocery/C-store/Mass merch.
not on-premise bars clubs.
Now whos the one that needs to read?
Back to my request. Show me the SPECIFIC law that you are trying to sell us on! or YOU SHUT UP, OLD MAN!!
02-26-2004, 10:27 AM
I believe this proves nothing. Anti trust laws are set up to keep competitors from conspiring to fix prices or rig bids. The Clayton Act prohibits mergers and aquisitions that can lessen competition.
Checkout www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/div_stats/1638.htm (http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/div_stats/1638.htm)
02-26-2004, 10:50 AM
Dr. Peeper give it a rest. READ IT! It is to prevent large companies from creating Monopolies through unfair competition. My point was this is the law that would apply to RB giving cash and gifts to keep out competition. I GAVE YOU THE LAW. How you wish to interpret it is up to a judge. But I was asked to furnish the LAW and I did. From here it would be up to a judge. I have stated that RB giving cash and gifts to keep competition out is wrong and may be unlawful. I stand by my opinion. smile.gif smile.gif
02-26-2004, 11:47 AM
You can stand on it, doesnt make it right,but you can stand there. A judge did interpret it, and it has nothing to do with the onpremis and what is going on in this debate. Also, don't forget, many of these bars you are talking about, are dealing with the Distributor, not Red Bull NA. The local RBNA rep. may help to set things up, but its not through the corp.
But hey, feel free to stand on your choice. Just because Coke and Pepsi, and 7-up, and Snapple do it, and have been doing it for years and years, and now Red Bull is the only one who impacts your busines, it makes it wrong. Never mind that only Mrs. Energy supports you and no one else feels the way you do on this debate. Nevermind that anytime you are posed with questions you try to move the argument in another direction. It must just be because you are older and wiser.
02-26-2004, 02:10 PM
I showed you the law and Coke is being sued in other countries for simular misconduct. If you feel it is ok for companies to give cash and gifts to throw out competition fine..... but I just wanted to show you the law that has been governing fair business for nearly 100 years that you and Toby somehow didn't know about.
02-26-2004, 04:27 PM
I am going to post edudes quote on this thread everytime he posts a reply here. Because HIS opinion is all he has on this issue and even says so.....
"I have stated that RB giving cash and gifts to keep competition out is wrong and may be unlawful. I stand by my opinion."
So now my duty here is done with debating with him on this subject.
Ron we WON!!
His opinion makes it just that....HIS OPINION! not breaking the law.
So now we all can go on and talk about other things than his OPINION of this law!
02-26-2004, 08:26 PM
Wow! Im new to this forum and Energydude is already really annoying.
Do you guys know what the difference is between the Sherman Anti-trust or the Clayton Anti-trust?
02-26-2004, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by Energydude:
I showed you the law and Coke is being sued in other countries for simular misconduct. Coke and CCE have been found guilty of antitrust violations in the US. In the mid 90's in Texas CCE gobbled up a bunch of indy Coke bottlers and set new contracts with retailers that gave Coke up to 80% shelf space,100% in a few retailers, and prime position is coolers. The competition was relegated to bottom shelf and/or dead corners in the store. Coke was the only soda allowed to hang POS material in the store. Other brands could not use ice barrels or banners outside the store.
Several RC bottlers saw business drop almost 75% after CCE came to town. Reps from RC distributors that once dealt with store managers weekly were now told "we would love to help" but the contract with CCE did not allow it.
The RC bottlers got together, hired lawyers and hauled Coke and CCE to court. In 2000 Coke and CCE were found guilty of antitrust laws in Texas.
Edude, if Red Bull pulled this in every bar and c-store in town you are right there, likely would be problems. But throwing one or two bar owners a box of coasters,logoed glasses, some mirrors and 5 free cases for every 20 bought if Red Bull would be the exclusive energy drink is not wrong. As long as a consumer can go across the street and get Rock Star or Pit Bull and the distributors of those products are still selling their drinks to other retailers and bars then there should be no problem.
02-26-2004, 11:13 PM
I understand what you are saying but at some of my larger accounts and around the country RB offers up to 5k and free tables and free product to keep me and others out. Clearly that is wrong and to me a pretty clear case of unfair trade. It is simply a matter of time before a judge will hear it. It just upset me that a few people on this board were saying WHAT LAW SHOW ME A LAW... blah blah blah. You show it to them and they still don't get it. I appreciate the post.
02-26-2004, 11:55 PM
Clearly this is not a board full of lawyers. Dude, call your lawyer and discuss this situation with him. And then get back to us, and let us know when you plan to sue RB for violating antitrust laws.
02-27-2004, 06:31 AM
"I understand what you are saying but at some of my larger accounts and around the country RB offers up to 5k and free tables and free product to keep me and others out."
Obviously edude IS NOT a lawyer or even understands law!!
"I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR SAYING" ....my a$$.
when you place a "BUT" betwwen an agreence and a different statement it negates the agreence!
If you truly did agree you would have said "HOWEVER"
and isnt this just edudes "opinion" that its illegal? I believe he said it a few posts back.
"From here it would be up to a judge. I have stated that RB giving cash and gifts to keep competition out is wrong and may be unlawful. I stand by my opinion."
so lets PLEASE move on!
02-27-2004, 11:20 AM
Toby take an anger management pill. You guys wanted to see "the law" and he showed it to you. Everything we write on this board is our own opinions. The FACT is their IS A LAW that governs this business behavior. We all know it is up to a judge. You wanted the law and Dr.Pepper and energydude gave it to you. Your banter doesn't change the facts.
02-27-2004, 01:25 PM
No, edude gave a law that is not effected by what is going on. Dr. Pepper gave a better example of how they could violate fair trade practices. I gave a similar example earlier, but Dr. Pepper gave real life examples, much better. Mr. and Mrs. Energy, I think we are all in agreance that if Red Bull used their muscles and made sure they were the only energy drink in all bars and continued to keep throwing out cash and incentives, and also threatened to stop selling product to a bar if they didn't carry only RB, then yes, they would be in the wrong. But throwing $5k as a reward (be it in cash form or product form) is really not a lot to a good bar or club. They could sell a pallet of something else and make more than that in 1 night. These tables, I don't know if it is just one bar Mr. Energy saw it in, or what, I have never seen it, but so what. How many delies do you see with Coke tables out side? Nothing wrong there. When I sold energy drinks, it was never really an issue for me to approach clubs, and even though a lot of them sold RB, they allowed my beverage in. Even now (although I don't sell an Energy Drink) I see bars that carry a few different brands of Energy Drinks. Hey, RB may be pushing the envolope on what they can and can't do, but I have seen nothing that is wrong, and not widely done throughout the beverage world. Or maybe Mr. Energy, bars just tell you they are exclusive so they don't have to deal with more than one vendor. Still, it is only Mr. and Mrs. Energy who believe RB is in the wrong. Everyone else thinks what is going on is legall.
02-27-2004, 05:03 PM
Mrs energy...I suppose your BANTER does?
We ask ...if it is so against the law, why doesnt RB get taken to court?
You both reply .... it cost money and time both of which small companys dont have.
Well lets think about this for one moment! Thats a BS response first off!
Second, if you guys are SOOOO sure its against "THIS SO CALLED LAW" then you (or who ever)would definately win..... Correct?... and if you (or who ever) did win... then the judge would also have RB pay attorney fees and court costs!....correct????
You guys keep pitching this CRAP to us and we keep hitting it outta the park!!
Admit it..you are wrong!
Oh and Mrs Energy...its not me who needs a "course" ...its you and your hubby who needs a "Common Sense Course".
02-27-2004, 10:03 PM
I think I am going to sue Budweiser for using the word "refreshing" in their new slogan of "crisp..clear..refreshing" since ATF banned the use of the word "refreshing" in any and all alcoholic slogans and labeling about 50 some odd years ago. I guess all companies should read all of the laws of the country back to the 1700s to make sure that one might not use an obscure law, such as this one or maybe like the Oklahoma and Texas law that states that it is against the law to have a pair of pliers in your pocket at any time.
02-28-2004, 01:25 AM
Toby and Saint thanks for that helpful info you can go back to playing with your silly puddy now. Ron, I don't hear you screaming where is the law!!!! Show me the law!!!! I did show you. Everyone does not believe it is ok for RB to shell out 5k and give out gifts galore to throw out competition. It is morally wrong and just not good business. Will it have to be decided in a court of law... yes I am sure it will be. I just question why you are so quick to take the defense of RB??? What I see is a foriegn product trying to bully and keep out good old fashion American Made products like SumPoosie and Rock Star. I was just at a club tonight and I asked the manager what kind of energy drinks they served. He said they only served RB. I asked why and he said because they gave us 10k in radio advertising and a new outdoor bar. I said< "So why don't you serve any others anyway" he said, we agreed not to in exchange for the radio advertising and new outdoor bar. You honestly think this is ok? I am scared to think how things would be if we let this go on in all businesses.
02-28-2004, 01:05 PM
I stoped asking you to show me the law, because after about 100 times, you showed me a law from a different county. Then after repeatedly asking, you showed me a law that relates to beverages here in the US, but not to the topic of which we talk about. Which leads me to believe, there is no law that RB is violating. It doesnt mean one wont be created. But in order to break a law, there has to be one in tact, and enforcable. I am not comming quick to RB's defence. If this topic were about Whoop Ass, Rock Star, or Hansens. All 3 made here in the US. You started this topic as to why RB is sueing Bars. I started out trying to end this thread early, because it was a topic already discussed. You then changed it to wanting to sue RB. The thing you keep forgeting here is, the bar owners are agreeing to this tactic. And if they are doing it some places, or a lot of places. They will need to continue to do so for many years, and all over the place. They started in Santa Cruz, CA, so it is very well established here in CA. Yes, they give out promos and what not. But I have yet to see a bar with anything more than a light up sign and a couple bar mats with RB on them. You also have to look at it from both sides. You even said "I wish you owned a busines so you would know what it is like." Well, I have been on that side. And as an owner, if you got 50 different invoices comming in weekly, and you could shave off a few by eliminating some items, and kept what sold best. You more than likely would do it. Now if someone came to you and said, since we are by far your best selling item in this catagory, lets help each other out. You drop the other brands that you don't need to keep your busines open. I will then give you X number of cases free over this time period to give you Y $$'s for this or that or what ever. Sure, you would do it. For energy drinks, this works fine. You cant quite do it with beers, even if it were legal. Thats why the bars that only sell Bud or coors are usualy refered to as dive bars or "bud bar", and the great bars have about 50-70 beers on tap. This idea makes it hard for Sum Poosie to really succeed in its desiered markets, because they are trying to gear themselves for on-premis. Thats just an error on your marketing side. RB has been doing the same thing for many years, its a factor the company must have over looked. Or just took out its magic calculator to figure out how many cases they would sell. Either way, nothing illegal going on.
02-28-2004, 06:03 PM
Edude ... am I correct? In the post I made about sueing RB? and RB paying the court cost and attorney fees? Please answer me!!
I notice that when any of us make a VALID point ...you just ignore it! as you have with ALL of our questions!
Thats a great way to debate! Just ignore the oppositions rebuttle! You tell Ron and I to grow up?...well your the one that is acting so much like a child!
Does anyone else agree with me on this?
02-28-2004, 06:57 PM
Red bull is not breaking any laws in the United States, their lawyers are making sure of that. Energydude, you may not like it but we have a free market here in the states (well mostly free). You may not like their aggressive, ungentlemanly and underhanded tactics but they are breaking no laws.
AND TOBY ITS LEPKE
02-29-2004, 01:54 AM
So..... Lepke you and Ron and Tuby thinks its ok for RB to give cash and gifts to throw out competition is that right???????????? :confused:
02-29-2004, 12:02 PM
No energydude, I dont think red bulls practices are ok. I think they are a bunch of s c u m b a g s but they are breaking no laws.
02-29-2004, 12:24 PM
So are you saying it is ok and legal to give cash and gifts to have competition thrown out?
02-29-2004, 12:41 PM
Again L-E-P-K-E I am sorry....the horse is dead. I have your name correct now!
And Dustin Stemmer.... its T-O-B-Y, NOT tuby! Jackass!
And havent we came to the conclusion that what ALL companys (not just RB) IS legal? And that SUM people/Companys just dont like the tactic.
Thios thread has gone on why to long and its not even discussing the Original question!
"Why is RB sueing Bar Owners???"
So PLEASE ...PLEASE ..... lets just move on!
edude is not going to admit its leagal and we are not going to agree that his and mrs edud's law they pulled outta their A$$ partains to this subject!
THE FREAKIN HORSE IS DEAD!!!
02-29-2004, 05:51 PM
Your right you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. No matter how much proof is in your face you see it your way. Let's agree to disagree. :D
02-29-2004, 07:01 PM
First off ... you have produced ZERO PROOF!
Nothing stating anything that what any of the big companys do on-premise IS ILLEGAL!
and sure ... Ill "AGREE" that you "DISAGREE" with what anyone says here on this thread.
I was going to ask YOU, edude, a question....but whats the use....youll NEVER answer it like ALL the other questions that people ask you.
03-01-2004, 11:32 PM
Ask away!!! :D
03-02-2004, 06:16 PM
This thread started out asking the question why is red bull suing bar owners?
You may as well ask why a dog licks his privet parts?
The answer is the same.
03-02-2004, 11:51 PM
So....why is not the answer? is it how? :confused:
03-03-2004, 12:08 AM
They do it because they can???? RB goes around and bullies people and throws around money and people sell out. RB is at Costco .... that makes it really special at a club huh.... Their tactics are unlawful and I hope someone takes it to them. Club owners should all unite and throw it in the streets. Sue a club owner....give me a break, club owners made the product what it is.
03-03-2004, 12:11 PM
On premis is only 10-15% of their sales. But with that aside. So what if it is at costco. So is Monter, and Rock Star. So is most of the food you eat, most of the beverages you drink. Its a lot easier to sell a product you can find almost everywere than just in a bar.
03-03-2004, 03:39 PM
FINALLY we are back to the original topic!!
quote from edude
"Sue a club owner....give me a break, club owners made the product what it is."
The club owners DID NOT make RB what it is today..please get your history correct before you start spouting off!
It was grass roots marketing by a few dozen RB employees on the west coast working 16 hours+ a day 7 days a week that started the RB(energy drink) phenom. Maybe something YOU (edude) should be doing insteed of crying, griping, complaining, lying, and pulling crap outta your A$$ here on this board. Or maybe you should just say-
"THANK YOU RED BULL, because of you I now can peddle a few hundred cases of my 'pepto bismol'".
As far as sueing clubs....RB DOES need to! as well as COKE, PEPSI, AB, MILLER, etc. continue to, for "PASSING OFF".
Talk about illegal! Now thats breaking laws, and judges have heard it and have ruled FOR RB!
It is so typical that YOU being the copy cat(poosie) would want RB NOT to sue. That way you can continue to reap the benifits of passing off!
Edude, your amazing, you claim to be so wise and have the "around the block" experience. However you open your mouth (fingers) and portray yourself as a factless-bantering-ignorant-insulting snake oil salesman!
03-03-2004, 04:52 PM
Toby I don't mean to get in the middle of this lovely conversation but do you honestly think people mistake SumPoosie for Red Bull? Or even could?
03-03-2004, 07:28 PM
Mrs. Energy, how could they. We have already been educated on how Sum Poosie smells better, tastes better, and looks better. But there are a number of other drinks that could be passed off as Red Bull.
03-03-2004, 07:36 PM
Well Heidi...now that you are in the middle of this lovely conversation, I wouldnt have any idea if SP could be mistaken for RB since I have NEVER seen it in person...let alone taste it!
(lack of distro and empty promise from edude on samples)
also .... mistaking SP for RB is NOT the point I was making.
I am not even going to repeat myself from the last post, all I am going to say is you and your edude love to move the argument to other subjects...as RON said earlier.
03-03-2004, 09:11 PM
A friend of mine was vacationing in South Carolina and found a bottle of sum poosie. His opinion is that it was a good product and he liked the packaging. Im sure it is good but that doesnt mean it has legs. Plenty of good products dont make it in the marketplace for one reason or another.
As far as on premise goes Im pretty sure when people order a drink mixed with red bull thats the taste they are looking for not the taste of sum poosie. Lots of energy drinks out there could pass for red bull. Some of them have the same or similar flavor profile and may even taste better then red bull, but they are asking for red bull and should get what they ask for, or be told the name of the brand the establishment serves.
You dont build a brand by passing it off as the market leader. I want the consumer to know the name of my product.
Here in lies the problem. A busy and very loud night club or bar or what ever cant always inform the customer over the defining noise. People cant even hear them selves think. So how can a busy bartender scream the information?
Red bull is within their rights to sue club owners. But is that good customer relations?
If red bull gets bad publicity over it then great. Bad publicity is better then no publicity.
If it makes the news even better, thats like getting commercial airtime without paying for it.
I remember when the local news ran a story about the danger of red bull back before they were big in this area red bull eat it up they loved it free air time.
Any way one would think pissing off customers would be no way to run a business but it has worked for red bull from the start. Their demanding and arrogant style seems to have worked. Now when red bull throws the retailer a bone (i.e.) a deal any deal the retailer is thrilled.
By the way
. As much as I bitch about red bulls tactics I do appreciate what they have done for the category.
03-03-2004, 10:48 PM
quote from LEPKE-
"By the way
. As much as I bitch about red bulls tactics I do appreciate what they have done for the category."
Now why cant Mr n Mrs edude say that?
Thank you LEPKE.
03-03-2004, 11:20 PM
A few years ago a friend of mines wife came up to me and said, "Look what Dave gave me for Valentines Day" she proudly displayed a pair of Dog Tags that had their name on it and one said I love you very much! She was as proud as a peacock strutting around with Dog Tags. I thought man Dave is a genius, he has his girl bragging about a 5 dollar gift. Forget Roses and diamonds Dave found the answer Dog Tags that say I love you...... RB has everyone thinking it is ok to spend big bucks on a ugly, bitter yellow drink. Who would of thought. ;)
03-03-2004, 11:42 PM
sorry if you think $2 is a lot of money for a can. Even though you said your product sells for $5-$6 a bottle in bars. Edude, I got nothing against you or your brand, but think through your posts a little more. If you want to go back to your thought of Red Bull doesnt taste good to you, you think it is worthless, and overpriced for what you get. Then I don't think you will have many or anyone disagreeing with you.
03-04-2004, 09:49 AM
what does dog tags, $2 a can, and what RB looks like smells like and tastes like have to do with
"RB sueing Owners"?
03-04-2004, 10:18 AM
I understand...... you think RB is right to sue. We now have to look forward to lengthy conversations between bartenders and patrons. "Would you like that with Absolute, Sky, Rain, Vox, Bellvedere, Smirnoff, Ketel One, Iris, or 3 Olive?" "By the way we don't serve RB but we have one simular in taste called Roaring Lion, but we also have Rock Star, Amp, 180, and SumPoosie!" Yeah...... that's what I want to hear every time some orders a drink!!! :rolleyes:
03-04-2004, 11:09 AM
Again...I will quote my Granddad,
"A man is only proven stupid, when he opens his mouth and removes all doubt" Good joid edude, you have yet PROVEN yourself again!
Since when does Vox, Rain, Absol, Belve,Grey Goose etc. own the copyright to VODKA?
Since when does JD, JB, JW, etc own the copyright to WHISKEY (Whiskey sour)
I can go on....
I have been in many of bar when I order a Jack and Coke, and the Bar doesnt have Coke and they ask "is Pepsi ok?".
Same goes with RB, they will ask is KMX, or 180 or Rockstar ok.
Yes it is up to the Bartender to let you know that they dont have something you ask for.
If they dont and serve you something else...ITS CALLED PASSING OFF!!
Coke has sued Trion (my have changed names since) KFC,TACOBELL, PIZZA HUT which is owned by PEPSI for not specifying "Is Pepsi ok?"
So yes RB should sue away!!
Hope I made myself clear, and oh look ....I answered one of YOUR questions, edude! Try returning the favor!
03-04-2004, 11:30 AM
plus....you just answered your own question!!!
"Why doesnt Clubs carry a "CHOICE" of energy drink?"
When some one orders a RB and Vodka, they know they are getting RB and well vodka.
When someone orders a RB n GreyGoose, they get what they ask for.
So what your proposing is that all patrons should ask for a "ENERGYDRINK and ____ (whatever)"
...why should the Bartender go through the spill of saying (and I'll quote you) "By the way we don't serve RB but we have one simular in taste called Roaring Lion, but we also have Rock Star, Amp, 180, and SumPoosie!" ?
I think that the owners are in the business of selling Alcohol, NOT mixers!!
I can hear it now...(an owner is forced to carry more than one sourmix)
patron - "gimme a whiskey sour, please"
bartender - "what type of whiskey? we have JD, JW, JB, OLD GRANDDAD , and Evan Williams"
patron - "JD"
bartender - "oh and we have 4 BRANDS of sourmix, A ,B ,C and D, thanks to edude and his fair trade whinning"
patron - "JUST GIMME A BEER, enough talk"
bartender - "well, sir we have 10 on tap and 30 in the bottle, shall I list them for you, cause if I dont it will be 'UNFAIR'!"
Come on edude, wake up!
There are terms, and then there are NAMES! please tell me you DO understand that!
03-04-2004, 11:33 AM
Come on now. Lets give energydude a break. If we have all learned one thing from this thread its that none of us know the law. As far as edude, I think he may have gotten the message about coming on strong with his Sumpoosie posts. He has even started a non energy drink topic that has remained civil. Lets give him a chance now, so in the future if he wants to make one post telling us the new bottle models are out or his drink is in a new size container it will not be so annoying. I laid off on him and some others have and I think he has backed off. Lets declare this topic over.
03-04-2004, 12:14 PM
I thought we did declare this topic over. Especially some months ago when we already had this whole conversation about RB sueing bars.
03-06-2004, 09:12 AM
Toby you are comparing Energy Drinks to Sour Mix?
Believe it or not all energy drinks do not taste the same and some are very different in taste and color. Bartenders enjoy having options. RB only sells to 1 out of 10 people at a club or bar.......what do you do for the other 9?
03-06-2004, 10:28 AM
Member # 1203
Rate Member posted 03-04-2004 10:18 AM
I understand...... you think RB is right to sue. We now have to look forward to lengthy conversations between bartenders and patrons. "Would you like that with Absolute, Sky, Rain, Vox, Bellvedere, Smirnoff, Ketel One, Iris, or 3 Olive?" "By the way we don't serve RB but we have one simular in taste called Roaring Lion, but we also have Rock Star, Amp, 180, and SumPoosie!" Yeah...... that's what I want to hear every time some orders a drink!!!
THEN YOU POST -
"Bartenders enjoy having options. RB only sells to 1 out of 10 people at a club or bar.......what do you do for the other 9?"
EDUDE, you totally contradict yourself! Do they enjoy options or dont they? (lengthly conversations) your the old and wise one! or shall I say old and cenial!
TO ANSWER YOU QUESTION -
Beer, Malternative, Mixed Drink, Wine, Shot, Liquor, Martini, Cola, Water, ...... shall I go on. Again its a BAR (sells alcohol) not an ENERGY DRINK/MIXER establishment!
This is a dead subject, PLEASE LETS MOVE ON!
03-06-2004, 10:43 AM
Toby... nobody goes to a bar and orders sour mix straight up! Energy drinks are used as a mixer but often consumed alone. RB is often mixed because it is not easy to drink alone.
My point is if people walk up and say give me vodka and an energy drink! The bartender now has to go through all the vodka's and all the energy drinks. Do you honestly think that every time someone orders a coke and 7, they are actually getting coke. Most of the time they are not and customers do not care. I have owned many clubs over the years I can speak from experience this is a slippery slope for RB.
03-06-2004, 10:52 AM
"Do you honestly think that every time someone orders a coke and 7, they are actually getting coke. Most of the time they are not and customers do not care."
Well they had better be getting Coke... or it called passing off, does the consumer care? No, but Coke does, RB does and you DONT cause you are reaping the benis of "passing off".
RB plows, cultivates, fertalizes, weeds, waters, plants, the CROPS n FIELDS then you come along and harvest what they have worked so hard on.
AND WHY WONT YOU ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS ????
You are very frustrating to try and rebut with!
03-06-2004, 11:33 AM
I don't answer some of your questions because you simply do not know what you are talking about. A. You have never owned a club and B. You have never brought a product to market Your business knowledge is limited at this point because your experience is limited. Young guys like yourself and I was one of them, think they know it all. I often just smile to myself because I was once young and full of myself like you are. Isn't nice to know when you get older you will be just like me! ;)
03-06-2004, 12:12 PM
Again...my Grandpas quote -
"A man is only proven stupid when he opens his mouth and removes all doubt" Congrats! youve done it again edude!
How do you know I havent owned a Club?
How do you know my experience and what Ive done in my professional career?
You dont know what product Ive brought to market! also , you have no idea what my business knowledge is!
And ...You have no idea how old I am! or who I am!
Edude,in a nutshell, you dont know me, so you spouting off like you did just continues to prove your STUPIDITY!
and as far as being like you!?!?
I would kill myself, honestly!
03-06-2004, 12:24 PM
I know you have never owned a club and
I know you have never brought a product to market
I know what I know because of your inability to articulate and process meaningful dialouge.
I hear your inexperience with every word you write.
I know what you know and I knew it 30 years ago!
03-06-2004, 12:37 PM
you use the word KNOW alot PAL!
and no you dont KNOW! you havent the slightest idea. You say you can tell by the words I write and what I say?
So I would assume If you read a posting from GW Bush you would say "I KNOW your not the president, because of what you write" .
Edude, your full of it. You know absolutely NOTHING!
Lastly, another qoute from my Grandpa -
"A man who brags about what he knows, only knows how to brag"
03-06-2004, 02:26 PM
As I said in an earlier post, just because you own a business, doesnt mean you should. Honestly, if you think passing off any soda or energy drink as to what you see fit, and not to what the consumer orders, then I am glad I never got a drink from your place. To me, if a club/bar has a big sign up or some sort of anouncment that they only cary RB, Rock Star, Sum Poosie, Hansens, etc. That is sufficent enough. I have worked Raves and clubs behind the bar. I have always had time, and been able to show the people what I am serving or what is being offered. To take the time out and explain a little bit about what the product is doesnt take that long. But this was not my job, it was promotional working with the clubs and bars. So maybe if it was something I was doing all the time or every weekend, it would get tiering trying to explain the product to everyone. Show the can, show a sign, and if they ask for another brand, just say "we only have ....", or what ever brands you have. As far as vodkas, almost all places have sign or menus quoting 2 different prices. Well drinks price, and premium drink prices. Almost everyone knows you will get their generic vodka unless you request other wise. Thats usualy why they show all their drinks, easy access, and easier for cunsumer to know what they are getting. Red Bull sueing bars/clubs/ stores for selling their drink under different name...Yes, legal and worth it. Protects their brand, and their copyright. Which is worth millions and millions anually. Same with Coke, Bud, Pepsi, whom ever. Edude, you would not be as happy if a club was selling your drink, going through 10 cases per week. You think its great for your product. Till you go there, and find out everyone is asking for Lollies Cherry Pop, and they give Sum Poosie. No one knows that they are drinking Sum Poosie, they just keep ordering Lollies Cherry Pop, thinking it is great, and asking all their friends to order the same. You are now going through inventory, but doing nothing to help your brand in the market place. No one will ask for it in stores, no one will buy it for their parties, and no one will even know the drink is around. Now multiply that by 10,000, and put your trademark on the line. Wouldnt be so happy. My father was sued by Coke because he was ordering slurpee mix from another company. Even thought the cola tasted the same. 7-11 Slurpee cups said Coke on it, and he wasnt using the generic Cola signs,he was using the Coke slurpee signs. Coke ended up dropping the law suit, but they made sure their point was made.
03-06-2004, 03:04 PM
You think I am bragging because I know you have never owned a club and have never brought a product to market? You think that is bragging? LOL!!! You made my point thanks! Ron I understand your point I really do. I find RB methods to be absurd and militant. They come in the door with smiles but heaven help you should you have another energy drink in the club. I have spoken to hundreds of club owners around the country over the past 18 months. There is a RB backlash coming. It is a fowl tasting product that does not have to go by FDA guidelines and is not MADE IN THE USA! Add to the fact they are now sueing Mom and Pop club owners? No thanks, life is too short to drink a lousy tasting energy drink!
03-06-2004, 04:30 PM
"You think I am bragging because I know you have never owned a club and have never brought a product to market? You think that is bragging? LOL!!!"
Edude, I honesty dont think you are that stupid to interprut what I said the way you just stated.
You know exactly what I meant.
You also stated that "I" never bring anything of value to any topics!
Well, RON just repeated what Ive been trying to tell you for weeks in one of his last posts. Why is it that you recognize and agree with what RON states, after I post the same facts and opinions!
Energydude....You have crossed many of business and personal bounds with many people on this board. But implying that I am not intelligent because of the way I speak....then, stating that I am not nor have been successful in my career....that truly takes the cake .... I only wish that I run into you one day ,face to face, this industry is too small for that not to happen.
I am truely done with you. I want to applaude EXTREME and everyone else for their will power in ignoring you, and hopefully I can have the same.
My Lord and Grandpas qoutes -
"Turn the other cheek" - God
"First time shame on me, second time shame on you" - Grandpa (youve had your second time edude)
03-06-2004, 05:47 PM
youve stated twice the RB doesnt abide by FDA guidelines. What are they not doing right?
03-06-2004, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by Energydude:
My point is if people walk up and say give me vodka and an energy drink! The bartender now has to go through all the vodka's and all the energy drinks. In your case the bartender should not have to go thru all the energy drinks and vodkas because the customer did not ask for a specific brand. When I go to a restauraunt I just ask for a cola or diet cola and take what they give.
03-06-2004, 08:18 PM
Ron... FDA guidelines for caffeine place carbonated beverages like energy drinks at 6mgs. per fluid oz. RB is 8.2 oz. so it should by FDA guidelines contain no more than 48mgs. however, it contains 80. Why should they be allowed to do this?
03-06-2004, 08:36 PM
Actually Dr. Pepper My Bartender would have suggested the top shelve Vodka's going for the up sale!!! ;)
03-07-2004, 05:56 PM
Ill take your word for it, I don't have exact quotes, but I thought it was 70-80 mgs. for an 8 oz serving. I know Hansens has 50 mgs. Jones Whoop Ass has 80 I believe. So does the FDA just ignore a lot of these things with the E-drink catagory, or do they just not enforce untill there is a problem.
03-11-2004, 09:10 PM
I am going to ask why? I am going to call the FDA and see if I can get an answer as to why they are allowing products like RB and others to sell in the USA when they are over the 6mgs. per fluid oz. for caffeine. There is even another Energy Drink coming out called Burn and it has 118 mgs. of Caffeine in an 8oz. can???? I wonder if the rules matter because RB doesn't follow them either? :confused: