View Full Version : Da bull

05-10-2003, 12:59 AM
With so many anti-Red bull posts, the question is what would take to un-seat Red Bull as the energy drink sales leader.
Better taste alone does not appear to be the answer as there are now many better tasting energy drinks on the market.

05-14-2003, 04:29 PM
That's easy - someone else would have had to be first.

06-05-2003, 05:26 PM
I think it tastes good.

06-09-2003, 05:07 PM
Hey Puck you are an Pompus Idiot! It has nothing to do with being first!

To answer this persons question is simple, hit RED BULL where it hurts and means the most, but in a legal competetive business form.
ON PREMISE MARKET. Give the comsumer a less expensive alternative with name or brand recognition in major markets.
Any one who knows RED BULL knows that ON PREMISE drives their business. Thats why when they launch the product in a new market they target the "A" CLUBS where the "A" (influintial) people frequent and stay in only those accounts for many months building up the "want, cant have" buzz then slowly build the distribution in that market.
There are companys out there that attempt this very practice they just need to stick with it, hell Rome wasnt built in a day, but RED BULL N.A. was built in 6 years!

Ron Swedelson
06-09-2003, 06:07 PM
No,Puck is right. Any and every drink company can try to blitz the on-premis, but it won't work. And besides, Puck can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe on Premis is only about 20-30% of Red Bulls busines. Red Bull not only came first, but they came corect. Its a proven functional beverage, that may not taste great, but it works. Their comercials, although anoying as all hell to me, does not single anyone out and applies to everybody. They are plastered everywere, and at almost all events. The only way to take over the #1 spot in the energy drink catagory, is to buy Red Bull and change its name, or hope they just shut doors one day. Im will a lot of people. I don't like Red Bull, I don't like its taste or price, I do love the Red Bull girls, but hate everything else about the company. But you can't deney a company that went out and did it all on their own. Bars will keep them in, stores will keep it in, and there is really no way to over take their market share, period.

06-10-2003, 06:28 PM
Hey RON you must have been drunk when you wrote this because of all the misspellings and lack of sense you made in writting this!

You missed my point!! so go back and read my post and lets try and respond with something that even resembles a rebuttle!

Ron Swedelson
06-10-2003, 06:52 PM
First off, go back and read any of my other posts, you will find that spelling is not a gift that I have. Also, I was not just responding to you, but also to Marshal that asked what it would take to topple Red Bull. I still stick by what I say, it just can't be done. Even with big brand names like AMP (Mt. Dew) and adrenaline Rush (Sobe), they can't put much of a dent in Red Bull. Your focus of on-premis can help somewhat, but not a ton. On premis does not drive Red Bull anyway. Its a big factor, but does not drive them. Its the same thing as if someone tried to take Budweiser out of the #1 seat. Not only is there such a wide gap between Bud and the #2 drink, and not only will there be the bars that won't serve Bud cause they want the other drinks. The best people can do is hope to widen the market and pull in more customers with their brand.

06-11-2003, 12:04 AM
Ron...... while RB may be largely number 1 now those numbers will diminish once people find out energy does not have to taste like crap. We consistently beat RB with SumPoosie when they go head to head. In fact the cigar shop on Lincoln Rd. in South Beach does 3 to 1 SumPoosie over RB. It is just a matter of time before RB loses some market share. 66 to 70% market share is not obtainable in the future. RB was very cool in the 1990's people are now looking for the next cool thing. I think SumPoosie is it! I have history on my side..... when was the last time SumPoosie went out of style??? tongue.gif

Ron Swedelson
06-11-2003, 11:48 AM
Hey Energydude, make me a believer. I hope you all realize my point. I dont like Red Bull, and I can't wait untill they are gone from the market, or even a noticable second will make me happy. I am just in awe of how much total domination they have. Ill check out that cigar shop next time I go back to my office which is on Lincon in Miami Beach. But plain and simle, they dominate in total cases, and I just don't see anything out there that will kick Red Bull off its high horse, but please keep trying.

06-11-2003, 12:03 PM
First off, ON PREMISE "DOES" drive Red Bulls market! Trust me when I tell you that! If we looked at your resume I do NOT believe that Red Bull would be on it.
Here is just one of many facts that back up what I am tell you, RED BULL employes more ON PREMISE Mgrs in a region than OFF PREMISE Mgrs.
Try on average 12+ to 1! Do you think that is a move to protect the segment? I think ...scratch that...KNOW so!!
As far as Coke, Pepsi, and Bud GIANTS not toppling RED BULL, well lets say that I have heard it from the horses mouth that those three do not want to take the market from Red Bull for many reasons .... here are a few that I believe YOU might understand.
1)Their focus is on their main stream products i.e. soda and beer, obviously.
2)Let RB spend the time money and (no pun) energy on driving the catagory, and they will just ride the coat tails and rake in the $$$$!!!

So come on RON if the three giants I mentioned wanted to drop an a$$ load of dollars on pushing their skus and put RB under they could....but again going back too my #2 point.....

06-11-2003, 04:30 PM
I can answer "why" and the reason is simple. Kids and teenagers are going to start drinking energy drinks and become "branded". Instead of drinking coke or pepsi like we did when we were kids more and more are passing on the big two and drinking RB or the likes. Even 2 or 3 percent means how many $$$$ to Coke and Pepsi!!!
Think Pink Drink Pink :cool:

Ron Swedelson
06-11-2003, 06:23 PM
Your right, Red Bull would not be on my resume, nor will it ever (unless they want to shell out about $70-$80K, then I can be bought). We may be arguing on 2 different points here. If you are arguing that on-premis is important and they need more people to help push it than the up and down the street market, then yes, I agree. If you are arguing that on average, Red Bull sells more in on-premis than in a mom and pop store, then yes I agree. But my point is that Red Bulls numbers are great up and down the street and the on-premis only pads them. You could delete all of Red Bulls on-premis #'s and they would still be #1. Yeah, you need more people to work the clubs cause it is more competative,and seen as an edge because if the cool place has your product, people will think its cool. Budweiser dumped a bunch of money on 180, and it didnt work. They are now trying again with an orange flavored water that is caffienated. Sure everyone else would rather ride Red Bulls coattails, they have no choice. But you still definatly see them plunking down a ton of money in ads. and comercials and POS for on-premis. Red Bull only spends more because they only have the 2 skus and more money than they know what to do with.

<Boston Bob>
06-12-2003, 06:35 PM
my two cents may not mean much but here i go anyway....

instead of fighting red bull, you should be making yourself aware of what is happening. basically, energy drinks are being used as mixers in booze. this is truth based on research.

because of this the anti booze folks are coming after the energy drinks. search the web for yourself and see. these nuts are telling people that you can die from drinking a red bull and vodka.

they also think red bull, rock star, etc. are contributing to more youth drinking of booze. i am not making this stuff up. the anti alcohol lobby has the energy drink guys in the sights.

some of you may have heard of zygo which combines energy stuff with vodka. they are getting it on all sides. the big booze guys dont like the idea, energy drink sellers dont like it and the neo prohibitionists are mad too.

hey, i am an outsider but y'all better be lookin in your rearview mirrors and stop picking at red bull. they are under attack and if they get reamed all the little guys go too like rock star, dark dog, zygo energy vodka, etc.

some links:


this guy is tryin to sell an energy bar with bo jackson.


this is in my backyard.

guys, wake up and smell the caffeine. circle the wagons and muster the info you need to combat this. coke and pepsi will be happy to see y'all gone. they will get rid of the energy drinks and not have the attention of the wackos. red bull has 80mg of caffeine per can. coke has about 55mg per can. caffeine is caffeine but the wackos will hit the energy drinks while the good ole boys in atlanta will be fine if KMX gets wacked. rum and coke anyone?


06-12-2003, 09:59 PM
While Red Bull's on site presence may not be it's most important source in terms of sales, I do believe it is Red Bull's most important aspect and the key to it's market position. Because it created and maintains the image that drinking Red Bull is cool.
Of coarse being first didn't hurt!

Ron Swedelson
06-13-2003, 11:53 AM
good point Marshal. Being in the clubs does help them try to stay cool. Personaly, I will never order a Red Bull in a club. I will honestly go and buy a can or 2 or Red Bull if I wake up with a slight hangover. The glucronolactones help me get through things. But thats it, I swear.

06-13-2003, 12:42 PM
I've tried Red Bull once and thought it was so terrible I've never bothered with it again. I don't care a lot for the taste of alcohol so I'd probably really dislike a mixed drink with da Bull.

Once, however, I did try mixing some rum with Bawls and thought that tasted pretty decent.

As far as hangovers go...I don't need Red Bull or anything... I guess I'm lucky, I really don't get hangovers. I think once or twice I had a slight headache/woosiness and an Excedrin took care of it in short order.

Ron Swedelson
06-15-2003, 09:19 PM
Red Bull even pisses off some of its distributors. Red Bull UK is selling Red Bull, and slapping on new stickers, and selling them to Costco here in the US. Red Bull USA gets no money from it, and the distributors loose money because they can't sell their Red Bull to Costco cause Red Bull UK is undercuting their price. What kind of crap is that

06-16-2003, 12:06 AM
Does anybody have any numbers on what % of the energy drink market Da Bull still controls ???

Ron Swedelson
06-16-2003, 11:03 AM
I believe it is 60%

<Boston Bob>
06-17-2003, 09:09 AM

Stop the player hatin and get the big picture.

Red Bull is not the problem. It is the "establishment" that tries to tell you how to live your life.

People are out to stop energy drink consumption.

Check out this link:


These people want to stop you from making choices. Stop fighting each other and band together. If Red Bull goes, the rest of you are next.

Boston B.

07-31-2003, 02:17 AM
I don't know about U guys but I have seen many other drinks in the markets here in Reno and whenever other drinks are sold there such as AMP, A-Rush,or Monster, then I hardly see anyone ever grab a RedBull instead of the others.
Point is that RedBull's time is limited in the energy drink market because they have crappy taste, too much sugar{like Rockstar) and not as much energy ingridients as the others.

Ron Swedelson
07-31-2003, 11:18 AM
My dist. in Reno also sells Red Bull. Unfortunatly, I can say there are no shortages of their sales. Red Bull is still alive and doing well in Reno. I appreciate that Red Bull has opened the market for a lot of new busines, but I am sick of them being everywere. I think I see more POS and shelf space for Red Bull than I do for Coke or Pepsi

Coco Rico
07-31-2003, 05:33 PM
Ground-zero, I hate to break it to you but Ron is right. These guys are everywhere and they aren't disappearing anythime soon. A friend of mine at Pepsi showed me some Nielsen data yesterday regarding the NA business in the Midwest and in Chicago C-stores Red Bull is the #1 single serve in both $ volume and unit volume. Their $ volume is more than 20oz Pepsi and 20oz Coke combined for the last 4 week reporting period. And they control 76% of the energy drink market. Hate if you like but they seem to be doing something right. I just wish I had thought of it first.

07-31-2003, 07:53 PM
"RedBull's time is limited in the energy drink market"

That's pretty funny. I'll remember that one when I go to the bank tomorrow and cash my FAT commission check that seems to get larger and larger every month. My distributorship hit a record high in sales this month. Yeah......we won't be here long........keep dreamin. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
BTW/ I am in Texas, and nobody touches us in the State. Thanks

08-06-2003, 10:08 PM

Is that you Taylor??

08-07-2003, 12:34 AM

08-18-2003, 12:47 PM
Who are you guys?? Energy means "Functionality" not taste. 8oz cans will soon be gone guys. Roaring Lion has Red Bull on the run. Tastes better, same ingredients, 16.9oz bottle & BiB. Game over kids. Think you're drinking RB in your favorite bar? It is probably the Lion. RB actually suing bars for serving the Lion. Check out the definition of arrogance and you will see RB looking right back at you. Trying to Force on-premise accounts through the courts to stop serving a competing product because it is easier to use for the bartenders, tastes better, is half the cost, and with the same ingredients is laughable! Great job RB!!! You guys kill me. Like I said game over.

Coco Rico
08-18-2003, 06:02 PM
I take it from your post you work for Roaring Lion. If so, I was curious about something. It's pretty clear that the bulk of Red Bull's volume comes from off-premise channels, and that the on-premise business only constitutes about 15%-20% of their sales. However, the on-premise business seems important because it helps build the brand mystique and it's where most people first try Red Bull. Since the BIB energy drinks like Roaring Lion have been created with the blatant purpose of fooling people into thinking that it's Red Bull (same taste, smell, color, etc), aren't you in fact reinforcing Red Bull's position as the market leader if people don't know the difference?

Given that no one ever intentionally orders a Roaring Lion cocktail, how are you building the brand awareness to push your 16.9oz in the off-premise channels?

Also, seeing as how Red Bull seems able and quite willing to buy you out of their accounts, how is it exactly that you have them on the run?
It must be frustrating to have them come in behind you and undo your hard work, especially since some of you guys used to work for Red Bull.


08-18-2003, 07:38 PM
Red Bull forcing thousands of on-premise accounts to happily tell all their customers that the energy drink they have been drinking all year, that doesn't have that crap aftertaste, and gives you the same high with alcohol is actually Roaring Lion, PRICELESS! God bless you RB idiots

08-18-2003, 07:46 PM

I had an account of mine pick up some of that crap at a show in California.

After 3 months, one bag sits 1/2 full because the customers complained about how crappy it tastes.
It was even cheaper and the customers didn't want it. Hmmmm................
Meanwhile..I still sell that account 10 cases a week......
I'm on the run to get my wheeler out of the truck.......idiot.

08-18-2003, 09:16 PM
RB1 Your in Texas? You got SumPoosie nipping at your heels huh....

08-19-2003, 01:10 AM

Haven't seen nor heard a peep. My territory will stay that way.

Ron Swedelson
08-20-2003, 05:17 PM
Tastes better, same ingrediants? That doesnt add up. Anyway, that will not build your brand. Having people order Red Bull and whatever, and they get your BIB product. They don't think they are getting your brand. I'm all for competition out there, but for someone to blatently try to be a Red Bull copy cat while saying they are not, just for the way you seem to be doing busines, I don't think I will ever order your drink. Or maybe I will and not know it, cause that will help to build your brand.

08-20-2003, 09:35 PM
Hey Ron, the BiB was just to prove that is isn't the silly RB can that people want. Not only did RL make that blatantly clear, but it continues to milk RB out of serious $$$$ for what you claim is 15% of their business... 16.9 bottle instead of 8oz can. Can someone give Ron a quick history of Coke/Pepsi. Peace

Coco Rico
08-21-2003, 04:05 AM
Bullbuster, you are so deluded. I give Energydude credit, though I don't see much value to Sum Poosie, I give him credit for challenging Red Bull head to head, legitimately. On the other hand, Roaring Lion was only ever created for one purpose, to deliberately fool on-premise consumers into thinking they were ordering something they in fact were not receiving. Maybe someone should give you a history lesson on Coke and Pepsi, because they're the ones who paved the way for the litigation Red Bull is under-taking.

Oh by the way, launching that 16.9 oz was the dumbest thing you could have done. You sold more product when people thought you were Red Bull.

Ron Swedelson
08-21-2003, 11:35 AM
Thats cool, at least you know you are a complete knock off and cant sell a drop of your own product if people knew what it really was.

08-21-2003, 02:40 PM
I love it when we go head to head with RB. Frankly we do better and RB freaks out and goes in and buys the managers. They have this exclusionary so called contract to try to keep others out. What I don't understand is this... if RB is so great why are they paying managers and GM's to keep us and others out? The fact of the matter is they have to pay people to keep others out their product must not be all that. Sooner or later club owners are going to realize that RB may give you a few thousand bucks to keep others out but what they are really doing is keeping the bar from selling a variety which would reach a greater audience and make the bar more money. If anyone out there has a copy of this so called contract send it to me if you would like a copy I can send it to you.... I think the Goverment would call this restrict of trade. You don't see any bars selling only Vox do you? Then why just one energy drink?

Coco Rico
08-21-2003, 08:08 PM
Liquor falls under a different set of laws than non-alcoholic beverages. You can't buy exclusivity with liquor on-premise but you can with NAs. What Red Bull is doing maybe annoying to competitors but it is no different than Coke or Pepsi gaining exclusive contracts at schools, restaurant chains, or even in bars with their gun systems. Bottom line, Red Bull does it because they can and as far as I understand it they are protecting themselves from brands passing off as Red Bull.

10-17-2003, 04:23 PM
There is not a company out there that will come close to RB in sales. RB sells with 1 sku what companies like Pepsi and Coke push with 20. RB built the ultimate image. There is only one company that I have seen that comes close to RB's image and that is IMPULSE. I see Impulse as being the only true competitor to RB in the energy drink market. Both RB and Impulse can easily cross over to bars and convience. Who really wants to walk around drinking a Pink, Dickens Cider or Stinger. How goofy can these guys get. My prediction 2 years you will have RB #1 and Impulse #2 and it should be fun to see the Coke and Pepsi Wars in the Energy Drink Market and heck sorry to say I will be voting for the Underdog Impulse (Made in the USA). But we all know the guys at Impulse should be happy being #2.

Ron Swedelson
10-17-2003, 07:29 PM
I think someone either is a big fan or will be working for the company. Impulse, it may get some play, but #2, no way. Don't even think it will make the top 5. Unfortunatly to make the top 5, you almost have to reinvent the catagory. Rockstar did it with the 16 oz can. Adrenaline Rush used an already big name (Sobe). I just don't see it hapening.

10-18-2003, 12:59 PM
your right i am a big fan, i go back and forth between the two. actually i just got back from nacs and these guys had one of the hottest booths their. as for being innovators they just released their sugar free that has triple the caffeine with 5 calories in an 8 oz can. there is not another company out there with triple the energy for rockstar who really wants to drink 16oz and get double the calories and sugars and bloated on top of it all. amp is good if you like the taste of mt dew but call me old school i like my energy drinks 8oz, citrus flavor and lightly carbonated. i like companies that are innovators not followers, rb started it, rockstar w/16oz, and impulse w/ triple the energy. the rest of the drinks are only followers. there is only 3 drinks i will buy rb, impulse or rockstar. i will support any of these 3 companies just for the fact they are not scared to try and bring it to the next level.

Ron Swedelson
10-19-2003, 03:32 PM
BAWLS has more caffiene than all the energy drinks on the market, but it is a soda, not an energy drink. I saw the pictures, Impulse did seem to have a pretty nice booth. Hey, if Impulse becomes #1 or #100 it doesnt effect my pocket book one way or the other. I guess I have just seen to many drinks come in with their own gimick and have failed to suceed. Impulse has a shark on it doest it? That kind of like Shark Energy drinks logo. But then again Red Bull bought Sharks recipie for their energy drink (Shark, original energy drink of the world, Red Bull just put it out there a lot quicker and better).

10-20-2003, 05:56 AM
I don't get it. There are over 250 million people living in the USA. Red Bull has maybe 60% of the market share. That leaves a whopping 100 million potential drinkers. I would be glad to have just 1% of those. The BIG problem I see is that too much thinking of how to push Red Bull off their perch. I don't see it that way at all. So many people complain about the taste. So many people complain how they operate. If that is the case I wouldn't want to be the market leader.

This at the end of the day is about choice. The more you have the better. Too many market leaders would only limit the choice for the consumer. It is much better to have maybe 30 companies with their 1% share than maybe 3 companies having 90% share.

While Red Bull are around I think in general terms they are doing this category a world of good. After all not everyone likes a Coke or Pepsi but thanks to them other soft drinks get their % market share.

Ron Swedelson
10-20-2003, 11:26 AM
But becareful about using the magic calculator. Red Bull has about a 65-70% market share. And even though there may be another 100 million people out there, that does not make them all customers, and that is the problem. I have been selling energy drinks for a while now, currently in my 6th year. And I know more people that don't drink energy drinks than who do. Or people who do not even pay attention to these drinks and always say "Oh, is that like that bull drink, what is it called, something bull?" Of the people who don't drink energy drinks, there is almost no way to bring them into the market with out revelutionizing it all. Or just waiting till these younger kids get old enough to buy drinks. I won't say I wouldnt want to be the energy drink leader if there is so much negativity. But you have to remember, thoes who like it, don't need to praise it. But, a 1% market share would be awsome.

10-20-2003, 12:24 PM
At least someone thinks that ruling the energy drinks market isn't the only thing on their mind.

We have been around for almost 4 years now. In Spain we have a large consumer base. But then again in Spain we have a different approach when it comes to promoting our brand. As far as how much we ever want to or expect to sell in each country goes we use a very simple calculation.

As everyone knows most people will drink more than once a year. But not everyone will ever drink your product. So assuming that 1% of a countries population drinks one can per year, is what we expect to reach within a year. So the USA should be anything between 2.5 - 2.8 million cans for our first year.

This is just a target number to reach. Of course if availability allows and consumers like what they buy that one can will become loads more cans.

And if that isn't ambitious enough then maybe all the little guys like us are too ambitious or have serious amounts of capital to invest.

Coco Rico
10-22-2003, 04:29 AM
The one thing everyone fails to comprehend is that Red Bull never set out with a plan to dominate a category or to achieve a certain % of sales. How could they? There was no precedent set for what they were doing in Europe, so how could they have known how big it would get? In a sense the story is similar to Gatorade. They created a unique product for a very specific purpose and in the process they created and continue to dominate the isotonic beverage category. Red Bull came up with a unique product, developed an equally unique marketing stategy, some how it worked, and now they are where they are.

If your only goal is to hit a certain target number within a year, then you are completely missing the point, and selling yourself way short. For 3-4 years Red Bull was losing money in the US because they were focusing on executing a brand building campaign rather than hitting a number. Because of that, they are where they are and the only way they will fall is if the entire energy drink category ceases to exist.

Ron is right, there are a lot of people out there who don't drink energy drinks and probably never will. The reality is that Red Bull is one of only a handfull of energy drinks that is actually trying to grow the category, thereby bringing more consumers to it. The majority of energy drinks out there, Xtrem included, are only interested in riding the wave created by Red Bull, fighting for the left-overs in an attempt to make as much money as possible with the least amount of investment possible. Which is understandable, but you'll never distinguish your brand from the hundreds of other "me-too's" out there.


[ 10-22-2003, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: Coco Rico ]

10-22-2003, 06:09 AM
I am not surprised that there are allot of "me too". How many companies can afford to set aside $50 million plus purely for advertising?. I would think that there may be only 3-4 companies out there that could ever even consider such an investment.

The one big advantage Red Bull has over the other 3-4 big players is that they only have 2 drinks. The others have generally more than 6. The others are also bringing out and discontinuing their products every other month. This is why I think Red Bull will never have serious competition. While there is an energy drink category they will always be number one.

Our goal is what any natural "me too" could plan in their first year in any country. And that was what Red Bull probably thought when they first exported into Europe. Yes we have an energy drink, yes we will be releasing other versions to it, but as corny as this may sound we would prefer to have our drinks enjoyed than to have them bought purely because that's what could be found on the shelf. And if that means we only sold 1 million cans in our first year so be it. It is a shame that it is thought that if you are not the number one drink you are considered as a "me too". How about "me alternative"

02-06-2009, 11:38 AM
WOW!?!?!? for a company who has a REALLY GREAT product it seems that their owners have no idea how to run a business. Did any of them go to business school? I think first year first semester MBA students could make this a real brand and hit the almighty Red Bull square in the taurines. I heard they used to run Red Bull or something. If they did I guess we know why they aren't running Red Bull anymore: complete incompetence and a Roaring disappointment.

02-09-2009, 04:42 PM
WOW!?!?!? for a company who has a REALLY GREAT product it seems that their owners have no idea how to run a business. Did any of them go to business school? I think first year first semester MBA students could make this a real brand and hit the almighty Red Bull square in the taurines. I heard they used to run Red Bull or something. If they did I guess we know why they aren't running Red Bull anymore: complete incompetence and a Roaring disappointment.

How exactly is being the number one energy drink in the world a "complete incompetence and roaring dissapointment"?