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View Full Version : Posting a SIGN, legal , or Illegal?



toby1
04-12-2004, 09:00 PM
Edude (shadydude) has disclosed a shady tactic in pushing his TP BIB.

He has the establishment post a sign that reads..
"We serve our own great tasting energy drink. When ordering any energy drink we will serve you our great tasting drink. Thank You. Management! "

I say this is ILLEGAL (passing off). The employee should clarify to the comsumer at the time the order is placed that what they are going to recieve is "X BRAND" (tp bib) and NOT what they had originally ordered.

KFC/TACO BELL AND PIZZA HUT got into a legal mess with Coke when there was ZERO clarification between Pepsi (being served) and COKE (what people ordered).

It doesnt matter what signs are posted...hell if I ordered a PEPSI at the WORLD OF COCA COLA in Atlanta yes I would get laughed at but the employees would CLARIFY!!

In conclusion, I guess that this tactic (unknowingly forcing of) is the only way he can get people to order ....sorry ...... drink (cause their not ordering it) his product.

Im sure RBs law firm is way ahead of me on this.
Would love to know everyones opinion LEGAL/ILLEGAL?. ....and the outcome (which we will never know)

Tahts-a-dats-ago
04-13-2004, 07:20 PM
This tactic is called "slamming" when done by the phone companies. It's illegal and immoral.

I was in the *business* when Pepsi had trial markets in the Burger Kings and Wendy's. Pepsi did place signs that stated "Pepsi is proudly served" in those establishments. The signs weren't enough however - if a consumer asked for Coke (or a Coke product), that consumer had to be told that Coke products were not offered and asked if they'd care to try a Pepsi product.

If the consumer was not notified of the fact that Coke products weren't avialable (when asked for) - the establishment and Pepsi were liable to a lawsuit from Coke (infringing on trademarks, etc..).

I stopped at a small resturant today and asked for a coke - the waitress immediatly stated that they didn't serve Coke (Pepsi products only) and asked if I'd like to try Pepsi instead. No company takes their trademarked name lightly - nor should they.

I'm quite certain that Red Bull will file a lawsuit if their trademark is infringed in any way what-so-ever. I know I would.

toby1
04-13-2004, 08:32 PM
Im sure edude is gonna say this new guy is wrong and doesnt know what hes talking about!!

Ya know edude..we are not trying to "KEEP YOU DOWN" ...just trying to guide you in a LEGAL and MORAL direction.

Energydude
04-13-2004, 08:55 PM
You are comparing apples to oranges!!! The sign clearly states that no other product is available other than their own and a RED great tasting energy drink cannot be confused as RB. So LEGALLY speaking there is no attempt to deceive or Pass the product off as anything but what it is.

Pepsi and Coke can be easily mistaken... A great tasting RED energy drink cannot.....PERIOD!!!

The sign tells you just like a MENU what is available. A customer that orders anything else is either dumber than dirt or went to the same HS as Toby! smile.gif

NLE Dan
04-13-2004, 09:08 PM
You better watch out edude. You are right on the edge of which way a judge would rule on the issue. I think what you are doing is legal, but only because I think they haven't confronted a situation exactly like the one you've put yourself in. If it came down to a court judgement you could be the one that they decide to make an example. Be careful

Ron Swedelson
04-13-2004, 09:26 PM
Edude, I cant tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi. I can with Diet, but not regular. So just because you think one product tastes better than the other, why do you think that every customer that orders a RB & " " should know when the get the drink that they have another beverage in it. Why doesnt your sign say you only serve TP BIB, it wouldnt solve the problem of passing off, but it would help your defence a little. If someone askes for RB and they are served another drink out of the gun and not told differently, they will still asume they got RB. What if it is mixed with other flavorings that change the color, then its not Red anymore, so whats your defence now? I would love to see a bar or any store try and make me pay for a drink when I order one thing and get another. If they give it to me for free, fine, Ill give it a try, but I will not pay if they try and pass off something else to me.

Energydude
04-13-2004, 09:35 PM
Ron come on you have to be kidding!!!!!!!

THE SIGN SAYS!!!

We sell our own great tasting energy drink. Upon ordering "any" energy drink you will be served our great tasting drink. Thank you. Management!

What do you not understand???? If some dim wit now walks up and orders anything else other than our house energy drink. He is too stupid to get anything else other than what he is given.

It is not passing off because no one alive can confuse RB with a great tasting RED energy drink. NOT ONE PERSON ON THE PLANET WILL CONFUSE IT! If the customer says hey I said RB the bartender would look at him and say HEY READ THE SIGN GENIUS!!! Why order something we do not serve and tell you we do not serve?????????

toby1
04-13-2004, 11:08 PM
so the name of the BIB is "RED"?

Hummmm...Thats NOTHING like "RED" Bull! :rolleyes:

No one would assume that its a typo or a new slang for RED BULL. No never! :rolleyes:

Your right Shadydude. We all are Dumb, we all dont have your knowlegde nor experience or ingenuity! your the MAN! :rolleyes:

Nuff said!

Just dont take your defense you brought here to court pal!

Tahts-a-dats-ago
04-13-2004, 11:52 PM
Your sign will be fine E-dude - as long as people ask only for a energy drink. If those people ask for a specific brand of energy drink - your accounts must inform the consumer that the requested drink is not available.

How many people ask for a vodka and energy drink?

For that matter; how many people ask for a cola when ordering? Most request a specific brand (Coke, Pepsi, RC, etc..)

Brand awareness is very important to the companies that own the brand. Millions (or more) are spent to drive brand awareness - names are trademarked, as are advertising jingles. No company will allow you to get away with selling your product under their brand name.

I hope, for your sake, that you have very deep pockets - you're going to need them if you're playing the game you've claimed.

Energydude
04-13-2004, 11:58 PM
Again the sign clearly states that the bar serves its own energy drink. The sign is right there next to the bartender. You may order whatever you want the bar is just letting you know in ADVANCE that you will be served their fine drink!

No one is being tricked they are being told right up front order any Energy Drink you want..... you will always be getting ours!!! No deception no tricks just a club telling you right from the start no matter what you order you will be getting our energy drink.

How does it get better than that..... you are told before you ever order!!!

Tahts-a-dats-ago
04-14-2004, 12:07 AM
Get a very good attorney - and - hide any assets you have.

You cannot (legally) sell your brand under another brand's name. If someone orders a RB - they must be informed (prior to taking delivery of the product) that their requested product is not available. Your sign is meaningless in court - in fact it will harm your case greatly.

Tahts-a-dats-ago
04-14-2004, 12:09 AM
Is E-dude telling us that any micro-brewery can label their beer with a Budweiser label - with no fear of legal retribution?

Energydude
04-14-2004, 12:30 AM
I can see your new here so let me break it down for you. If you have a sign at your micro brewery and it says HEY!!! WE ONLY SERVE ONE BEER HERE AND IT IS THE ONE "WE" MAKE... NO MATTER WHAT BEER YOU ORDER YOU WILL BE SERVED OUR FINE BREW. Thank you. Management!

You walk in and see the huge sign and still order a Bud ...... you want to blame the micro for passing off?????? How about sueing you for being an idiot!!! THE ONLY SERVE THEIR BREW !!!! BUT THEY ARE SOME HOW PASSING OFF CAUSE YOU WANT TO BE A JERK AND PROVE A POINT????? Good luck! You guys do not have to like it .....it works beautifully thank you!!!

toby1
04-14-2004, 12:46 AM
hey TAHTS, if it is legal (labeling) Im calling all my suppliers Tomorrow! Man I cant wait to see my commission check in the next few months!

Passing Off! now why didnt I think of this before!

We will have plain generic Tap handles for all of our accounts.

Then post a SIGN stating:
"We sell our own great tasting BEER. Upon ordering "any" BEER you will be served our great tasting BEER. Thank you. Management!"
So when anyone orders any line of BEER we'll just serve them OURS!!!

YEAH RIGHT!!!

There is a bar/restuarant/brewery across the street from FENWAY PARK called "Boston Beer Works". All they sell is their own brewed beer.
So what edude is saying is a person orders a BUD there, hes an Idiot, if the Bar sells/serves him their Pilsner, BUDWEISER cant sue the bar! They should sue the idiot patron?

Man edude you have lost it pal! truly lost it!

Tahts-a-dats-ago
04-14-2004, 12:46 AM
I can see that you're not very bright - so I'll spell it out for you.

Even in the example you've offered: it is illegal for the micro-brewery to serve their beer under the label of Budweiser. Label the consumer dumb if you'd like - the micro-brewery cannot legally use the Budweiser name without permission from AB: the consumer must be notified (personally) that Budweiser is not served.

Tahts-a-dats-ago
04-14-2004, 12:53 AM
You're on to something Toby, but I'm going to take it a step further. Instead of tinkering with the miniscule dollars found in one bar, I'm going to use E-dude's fantastic idea in the car business.

I'll go to my local Kia dealer tomorrow and buy out all of their cheap vehicles, then label them with a BMW badge and discount the normal purchase price from a real BMW. My ads will loudly announce that I only sell my own brand of cars - and that they're better than any other car in the market. When someone asks for the price on a BMW - no problem. If the consumer is dumb enough to ask for a BMW when all I'm selling is a Kia - buyer beware.... I'll just take a page from E-dudes fantasy world and sell the Kia as a BMW.

toby1
04-14-2004, 12:55 AM
from the GUINNESS guys......

BRILLIANT!!! :D

Ron Swedelson
04-14-2004, 01:01 PM
Edude, were on the sign does it clearly tell the customer what they are ordering? What if they are illiterate? What if they didnt wear their contacts that nigth to the club or their glasses broke? I couldnt care less about you selling your TP BIB, but I just cant understand how you dont see it as passing off if someone orders a specific drink and it is sold to them as that.

Energydude
04-14-2004, 01:50 PM
What if they can't read??? Ron, its not like they are going to tell me they can't read! The sign is communication to the customer letting them know what they will be served no matter what!
The fact that there is a large 2 ft. sign directly behind the bartender takes Passing Off completely away as an argument because their is no attempt to deceive the customer. The sign is in clear view and let's the customer know what he is getting.

toby1
04-14-2004, 04:27 PM
so what your saying edude is the BIG 8' X 4' menu board in KFC
(that does not say COKE on it but DOES say PEPSI all over it) reliquishes KFC from legal liability when serving PEPSI and not clarifying to the comsumer when they ask for a COKE?

YES or NO?

Energydude
04-14-2004, 06:35 PM
Coke and Pepsi are like products Yes or No !!!
Do they have a sign that says WE SELL PEPSI PRODUCTS ONLY UPON ORDERING ANY COLA PRODUCT YOU WILL RECIEVE A PEPSI PRODUCT..... YES or NO

If they do they do not verbally have to tell the customer he is being served a Pepsi when he orders a Coke.

The sign clearly lets the customer know what they are receiving the establishment is under no further obligation.

If you boys feel it is SHOW ME THE LAW!!!!!!!!

SHOW ME
SHOW ME

PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!!
smile.gif

toby1
04-14-2004, 07:27 PM
how bout you now SHUT UP SHADYdude!!!!

heres my prof that what your doing IS ILLEGAL and you and the clubs that pass off "RED" as RED BULL will be sued!

http://www.wiggin.com/pubs/news_template.asp?ID=1020231292003

Startup Dude
04-14-2004, 07:35 PM
Thanks Toby.

I loved this passage:
"Red Bull, which controls 70 percent of the global energy drink market, has aggressively gone after violators, sending private investigators into bars and restaurants across the country to find out who's serving Red Bull and who is not. The drink is served exclusively in narrow 8.3-ounce cans that sell for more than a dollar each wholesale, making it an expensive mixer in trendy drinks such as Red Bull-and-vodka and Bullgaritas, and unwieldy for bartenders who prefer mixers with a "gun." [Red Bull doesn't offer volume discounts to large purchasers or syrup versions dispensable from a gun.] To cut costs, some bars turned to cheaper syrup alternatives such as Pure NRG."

Startup Dude
04-14-2004, 07:36 PM
I'm a bartender, not a trademark infringer!

Tahts-a-dats-ago
04-14-2004, 08:00 PM
The law clearly states that trademarks are protected - sign or no sign.

The sign doesn't matter - it only serves to ease your troubled mind. Some of the customers MAY notice the sign - most won't.

You could have a million signs up in one bar - selling your product as another product is still illegal.

Try as you might; you cannot escape the fact that some of your (claimed) actions violate the laws.

It isn't up to anyone on this board to supply you with the statutes regarding your dubious claims - it will be up to YOU to defend your illicit behavior when that time comes. Your sign won't play a part - with the possible exception that it harms your case. If you, or your accounts, are knowingly selling *brand X* as Red Bull - you're done.

I'd love to be in the court room when you claim those people, too stupid to read your sign, deserved to be taken. The judge will simply love that.

Like it or not, an order for Red Bull must either be filled or denied. Depending upon a sign that may have (or may not have) been seen won't release you (or the bar) from the *implied* delivery of the requested product.

The only argument you'd possibly have, would be in the unlikely event that you could prove Red Bull was now synonymous for energy drinks (of any brand). (Kleenex is an excellent example of that)

You could put a sign up that states "We refuse to serve Red Bull in our establishment" and you'd still be guilty of trademark infringements if you sold your *energy drink* as a Red Bull. It wouldn't matter if you personally told every person, who came into your bar, that your did not sell Red Bull - if someone asked for a Red Bull and you didn't inform them at THAT TIME that their choice couldn't be filled - you'd be guilty of trademark infringement.

Your circular *arguments* tell me that the product you're pushing isn't capable of selling on it's own - deceit must be used to move the item.

Few people can tell the difference between Bud and Bud Light (Keg beer) - especially after they've had several beers. Despite that fact, despite the fact that both are brewed by the same brewery and despite the fact that the only labeling difference (on kegs) is the cap and a glued sticker - it is ILLEGAL for the distributor to switch one for the other (tapping a Bud keg on a Bud Light handle). The courts view this practice with little patience - believing that the consumer may be "harmed" (or the retailer).

I will grant you the fact that few (if any) beer distributors have ever been sued for this practice - but they are all well-aware of the fact that it cannot (legally) be done.

If you (or your accounts) occasionally slip up and serve someone a BIB when RB is requested (by the consumer) I'm sure that nothing bad (for you) would come of it. If you make trade infringements a standard practice (as you appear to be doing) - something will definitely come of it.

Tahts-a-dats-ago
04-14-2004, 08:16 PM
Toby laid the smackdown on E-dude.

Energydude
04-14-2004, 08:26 PM
Sorry the sign is perfectly legal. Your opinion is noted but that does not stop the sign from being perfectly legal. Sorry.

Startup Dude
04-14-2004, 08:31 PM
Yes edude, the sign is legal :rolleyes:
It's the passing off that's illegal. Can you read? Seriously?

Energydude
04-14-2004, 08:54 PM
Start Up you are right Passing Off is illegal!
But the main thrust of Passing Off and it's being illegal is a willful attempt to deceive or trick a consumer.

A sign telling a customer that they can order any energy drink they want but they will get and only serve there own is not an attempt to trick anyone. And a red great tasting energy drink can not confuse anyone that it is RB or anything else.

The sign lets you know in advance. There is NO LAW stating you must VERBALLY inform a customer NONE!!!! IF YOU THINK THERE IS SHOW IT..... trust me you can't.

Ron Swedelson
04-14-2004, 09:32 PM
Shadydude obviously does not get it. Can't wait till all his bars are pissed at him because RB is threatening lawsuits against all of them.

johnnyrockets
04-14-2004, 09:47 PM
EDUDE wrote:

.."you are right Passing Off is illegal!
But the main thrust of Passing Off and it's being illegal is a willful attempt to deceive or trick a consumer."
------------------------------------

But unfortunately that's what would be happening if your bartenders did not say at the time of the drink order that a patrons requested "Vodka Red Bull" would be made with your mystery mixer instead of RB.

And if the bartender refuses to say this (of his own choice or because of pressure from management) then there is deception afoot.

Marketing ploys/campaigns are one thing, but I would definitely NOT want to step on toes that are trademarked!

[ 04-14-2004, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: johnnyrockets ]

Energydude
04-14-2004, 09:55 PM
Once again there is no law requiring VERBAL clarification!!! If it is written on a sign is it somehow less legal???? NO !!!

We recognize and follown signs all day long. Do you mean to tell me a sign works everywhere but is not enough behind a bar??? Sorry guys... a sign clearly stating what you will be served regardless of what you order is not unlawful its stupidity on the part of the person ordering what is not even offered at the bar!

Tahts-a-dats-ago
04-14-2004, 11:12 PM
When someone orders a Red Bull and Vodka, they are ordering a specific product. Your sign, or lack thereof, doesn't excuse the illegal action of serving brand X in place of Red Bull (without customer permission).

The burden of compliance, within the legal realms, falls not upon your customers (in regards to trademark infringements) - it falls upon you (or the establishments you're serving). The customer is NOT responsible for knowing what products you do or don't carry. The customer is NOT responsible for insuring that the product they ordered isn't switched for an alternative choice - that job/responsibility is yours. There are legal ramifications when trademarks are infringed.

Suppose SP had universal name recognition, with the sales to match. Would you stand by while some upstart company encouraged their accounts to serve brand X when SP was specifically asked for?

You'd be lying if you claim that you would not protect your brand.

The sign that you claim to have does not protect you from lawsuits in regards to your (stated) illegal actions (regarding trademark infringements). If anything, your signs will help Red Bull when they take you to court. I think your signs are legal..... but....... stating that any order for an energy drink will result in the use of brand X is very near to an admission of trademark infringement on your part. Couple that with the actual act of *passing off* and you're likely facing some serious legal challenges in the near future.

I'd suggest two courses of actions for your part:

1. Change the signs immediately. Something along the lines of "We proudly serve *Brand X* energy drinks" would do nicely. No need to give even the slightest indication that you'd engage is trademark infringement.

2. Encourage your accounts to notify any customer specifically ordering Red Bull (or any other named product) that the requested item is unavailable and you're offering an excellent alternative.

Red Bull (or anyone else) could huff and puff all they'd like - but they'd have no leg to stand on in a court case - and you'd be selling your product on it's merits. That, in the long run, will do far more to build your brand.

toby1
04-14-2004, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by Tahts-a-dats-ago:
When someone orders a Red Bull and Vodka, they are ordering a specific product. Your sign, or lack thereof, doesn't excuse the illegal action of serving brand X in place of Red Bull (without customer permission).

The burden of compliance, within the legal realms, falls not upon your customers (in regards to trademark infringements) - it falls upon you (or the establishments you're serving). The customer is NOT responsible for knowing what products you do or don't carry. The customer is NOT responsible for insuring that the product they ordered isn't switched for an alternative choice - that job/responsibility is yours. There are legal ramifications when trademarks are infringed.
I'd suggest two courses of actions for your part:

1. Change the signs immediately. Something along the lines of "We proudly serve *Brand X* energy drinks" would do nicely. No need to give even the slightest indication that you'd engage is trademark infringement.

2. Encourage your accounts to notify any customer specifically ordering Red Bull (or any other named product) that the requested item is unavailable and you're offering an excellent alternative.

Red Bull (or anyone else) could huff and puff all they'd like - but they'd have no leg to stand on in a court case - and you'd be selling your product on it's merits. That, in the long run, will do far more to build your brand. customer permission!!! AMEN TAHTS!!!
The burden of compliance...that job/responsibility is yours, NOT THE CUSTOMERS!! again amen tahts!!!

"selling your product on it's merits. That, in the long run, will do far more to build your brand."
TAHTS, he wants to use RED BULLS merits not his own. Thats it plain and simple. The sign states that. just read between the lines!

Tahts-a-dats-ago
04-15-2004, 12:05 AM
Absolutely Toby. That is exactly what E-dude is attempting to do. He is counting on several things:

1. Customers will come in and order (blank) and Red Bull.

2. His lower price per ounce product will be used in place of RB - without customer knowledge.

3. He'll get some volume - at the expense of his competitor - without any expense on his part.

4. The bar owner will love the higher profits - assuming the orders for (blank) and Red Bull don't drop substantially. (A very big assumption)

This increased profit margin will allow E-dude to keep his product in the account (he's hoping anyway).

I think he's doomed for a dismal failure though. His brand doesn't appear to have a name at all - it certainly has zero name recognition. He is tied to the use of someone else's property (lines) and at the mercy of two behemoths (in the event that BIB actually takes off in this category).

The category leader is so far in front of the pack that a multi-million dollar advertising budget is all but useless. If RB ever decides to pursue the BIB route - his business hopes are doomed.

His business practices are questionable at best - assuming he's being truthful, they're illegal. If he continues to conduct business in the manner claimed - he'll be out of business quite soon. He won't have the money or the ability to fight a very large company that is determined to protect it's brand.

toby1
04-15-2004, 05:41 PM
Ok the real issue hear IS NOT the sign.
Even thought I started this thread.

The real issue is when a paying customer asks for a SPECIFIC product, and the retailer/seller sells them another product without CERTAIN CLARIFICATION then this ILLEGAL action falls under trademark infringment (PASSING OFF).

It is the sellers responsiblity to make sure that the CLARIFICATION is CERTAIN! They are the ones that must make sure that there is NO GREY area when substituting another like product for another.

Is the sign enough to "COMPLETLY" clarify? some cases yes ...some cases NO....however it is NOT most of the time which brings the verbal clarification in to make up the difference.

I believe that STARTUPDUDE made the point that if a patron IS ordering RED BULL then they must have not seen the sign. So why not just have the bartenders ask "is "PAW" BIB ok?"?

Isnt that what this all boils down to? Letting the consumer "KNOW" that there is a different product being served to them. and the seller being CERTAIN that the consumer does KNOW the difference, not just ASSUMING they do?

Tahts-a-dats-ago
04-15-2004, 08:39 PM
The problem with clarifying the absence of Red Bull, from E-dude's standpoint, is the fact that his product wouldn't sell. Honesty isn't his goal.

E-dude appears to be the classic snake-oil salesman we've all heard about - a shyster with absolutely qualms about deceiving the consumer.

toby1
04-28-2004, 01:19 AM
with you being gone on vaca Dustin, did you come home to any "LEGAL" ISSUES?

You seem pretty silent. Did the BIG BAD RB send you or your customers a letter?

Any who...even if they did we would never hear about it. Oh well. just curious.

Energydude
04-28-2004, 02:00 AM
I guess I got a very much needed vacation and a nice tan and to be honest I am not looking to be so argumentative. You guys have your views and because we live in a free country you have every right to express them. In this post you guys have whined and cried foul foul your Passing Off!!!!! It simply isn't true and every legal opinion I have read has to do with attempting to trick or deceive a customer. I know you guys don't like to hear is but the sign works beautifully and we have yet to get a single letter from RB and I don't expect to because we simply say "Have you read the sign?" When a customer is dumb enough to still order RB and every time the customer looks and goes, " Oh, ok that's fine!" Simple and easy and rarely done....most people just read the sign and say ok Vodka and the house's energy please! ;)

bwallach
04-28-2004, 04:06 AM
There is a bar/restuarant/brewery across the street from FENWAY PARK called "Boston Beer Works". All they sell is their own brewed beer.
AMEN ! toby I sugest you try grittys up here in maine. There halloween is asome. oops off topic Nm

bwallach
04-28-2004, 04:17 AM
I got a question . I know in some parts of the world most notably the UK people say one cola. There served a cola nO matter what it is. Now correct me If I am wrong If I order a rum and coke and the bar serves only pepsi and I get a pepsi and coke this is baiting or whatever you call it?

Energydude
04-28-2004, 12:00 PM
No... the argument is give the customer what they want but!!!!! We all know that in many bars across the country a Rum and Coke is ordered but the customer gets Rum and their version of a Cola.

I do not agree that it is right for a bar to give you something that looks and taste like RB when Vodka and RB is ordered. However, I found that with a sign letting customers know what they will be served NO MATTER WHAT THEY ORDER is very effective and in this case is the barw OWN ENERGY DRINK. :D

Tahts-a-dats-ago
04-28-2004, 01:08 PM
Bwallach,

Despite E-dude's dubious claims, there are numerous examples of Pepsi/Coke suing over that very thing. Both companies are adamant about protecting their brands - as they should be.

If someone orders a Rum and Coke and they are served a Rum and (other) cola instead; the bar can (and many have been) successfully sued by Coke.

Face it, if you were to order a brand new BMW and the dealer attempted to substitute a Yugo - you'd not be happy about the switch. The dealer (and possibly Yugo) would be sued in court. There is no way BMW would allow such a infringement upon their brand's trademark.

E-dude will discover the error of his ways soon enough. If his actions are being reported accurately (on this board), it is only a matter of time before he'll be paying a fine and ordered to end his dubious business practices.

toby1
05-01-2004, 11:37 AM
I just love this link......

see the bottom as to peoples rights to paying for something they didnt order!

if this is true then edude might be refunding the bars their money for the PAW! since they will be giving it away!!

http://www1.whdh.com/features/articles/helpmehank/DBM123/

Energydude
05-01-2004, 06:15 PM
:confused: Lay off the funny green stuff Toby! :confused:

toby1
05-02-2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by toby1:
I just love this link......

see the bottom as to peoples rights to paying for something they didnt order!

if this is true then edude might be refunding the bars their money for the PAW! since they will be giving it away!!

http://www1.whdh.com/features/articles/helpmehank/DBM123/ What is so confusing about this article? When someone recieves something they didnt order ... they have the right NOT to pay for it.

Oh and I dont smoke pot, in fact I dont smoke anything!