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NRGSLLR@
08-24-2006, 05:45 PM
Okay the news is out! What do you guys think? Good Move or Not? It appears as though the target retail is $2.49 It appears as though the 16oz didn't work as well as expected!

greg
08-24-2006, 05:51 PM
Be careful what you say....big brother is on this board.

Mr Zabe
08-24-2006, 07:06 PM
LOL
This will be the start of another long thread of the Red Bull haters vs the Red Bull pioneers. LMAO

Popping the pop corn and icing down a fresh fridge pack of my beloved Pepsi. smile.gif

[ 08-24-2006, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Mr Zabe ]

David J.
08-24-2006, 07:14 PM
Remember this:


Originally posted by leisuredrummer:
The reason Red Bull has always had the 8.3oz can and has never gone bigger is because of the fact that 8.3oz is all your body needs and all that it can use. Anything else is wasted by your body. It isn't meant to be a "pleasure" beverage but as a energy booster.I guess their backwards ass (IMO!) logic ruled infavor against the 16oz can? So as a result it didn't do as well? I really doubt they would intentionally kill the product, no?

rackitup
08-24-2006, 09:59 PM
I think a 12 0z. can 4 Red Bull will look like a bad value, considering a 12 oz. can of Coke or Pepsi costs about a 25 cents.

zne0
08-25-2006, 01:10 AM
I Think RedBull is now feeling some preasure to move to a bigger can....I know..I know they are the creators of the energy category ect..ect..
but lets be realistic monster and rockstar sobe and fullthrotel are eating up market share and from a.c nielsen reports monster now has 43% market share in so. cal and phonix and coming on strong in Dallas and houston. RedBull and Monster are clearly #1 and #2 and IMOP redbull needs to step up to stay @ #1 and keep market share. My biggest surprise was to see how Rockstar is starting to fall behind surprising since CCE has a such a strong dist system.

NRGSLLR@
08-25-2006, 11:56 AM
Zneo, As long as RockStar is owned by anyone other than Coke, it will always be like an ugly cousin you had to take to the dance with you! CCE will carry it, but they will promote Full Throttle.

greg
08-25-2006, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by rackitup:
I think a 12 0z. can 4 Red Bull will look like a bad value, considering a 12 oz. can of Coke or Pepsi costs about a 25 cents. Well then how do suppose people get around the fact they pay $1.99 for an 8oz can????

Oh Yeah, because it is a functional drink, not just a thirst quencher.

CStoreCatMan
08-25-2006, 02:44 PM
Hmm...this one caught me a little off guard...12oz can? I guess we'll see what happens. Obviously, RB did feel pressure to move to a larger can...but perhaps they're still trying to differentiate themselves from the other brands. The only thing is, I don't know if this kind of differentiation will be positive or negative. Many 16oz brands are selling for $2-$2.50...will the consumer pay the same for 4oz less just because its Red Bull? Did it say when this will hit the market?

DirtyDirt
08-25-2006, 03:16 PM
If you think about the 12oz versus the 8oz, the larger can makes sense for two reasons. Think about it, RB was founded in Thailand and brought to Austia. If the serving size was based on people from Thailand, the people are a whole lot smaller than americans.Therefore it wouldn't have the same effects on a larger person. Next, for the Red bull fans, the real fans, the people who drink a four or five cans a week, don't you think they build up a tollerance to the ingedients? I think it's a good move, a perfect size. A 16oz can leaves you feeling bloated like you just swalled a bowling ball and at times 8 oz just isn't enough. Redbull hit them right in the middle....I think it'll do GREAT!!!!

Mr Zabe
08-25-2006, 03:51 PM
My arm chair thought.
RB's move into the 12oz can is a marketing strategy to gain access to the soda pop catagory.

The ED catagory will soon look like soda pop shelves with 12oz 6pks and fridge packs,cubes and even litter bottles. The US consumer is very use to the 12oz can format. I predict that sales of the popular ED's will greatly increase with the 12oz can. As well the catagory retail prices will stabilize or decrease due to the increased sale volume. $4 six packs might be the standard retail price for ED's????

[ 08-25-2006, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Mr Zabe ]

NRGSLLR@
08-25-2006, 04:34 PM
CStore Cat Man, I heard in market date will be Oct. 1, Regarding 12oz to compete with 12oz CSD,If that is true, all others including Monster will get into the market and compete.

fusion
08-25-2006, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by Mr Zabe:
litter bottles.

Litter bottles? Energy drinks for cats?


Originally posted by Mr Zabe:

The US consumer is very use to the 12oz can format. I predict that sales of the popular ED's will greatly increase with the 12oz can. As well the catagory retail prices will stabilize or decrease due to the increased sale volume. $4 six packs might be the standard retail price for ED's???? The problem is that when you put a product into a size a consumer is already used to, the consumer will come to expect to pay the same price. Coke had that problem with the 12oz PET bottles, so the scaled them back to 8 in a box. If you put an energy drink into a 12oz can, people will expect to get them on sale 5/$10 for 12 packs, just like soda.

Only time will tell if this is a wise move on RB's part.

[ 08-25-2006, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: fusion ]

rackitup
08-25-2006, 08:52 PM
[/QUOTE]Well then how do suppose people get around the fact they pay $1.99 for an 8oz can????
[/QB][/QUOTE]

Greg

I think Red Bull was sucsesfull with the 8.something can because it was unique at the time.

My reasoning on the 12 oz can is somewhere along the lines of fusion's (post above).

Now if they were 2 do a unique 12 oz container that looked little like the standard 12 oz can no problem.

I think if Red Bull was in a once again unique 12 oz container it would sustain the sales a little longer.

I am sure any 12 oz Red Bull container would sell alongside a 16 oz Rock Star or monster, I just think it would have more steam behind it in a unique container.

Coco Rico
08-25-2006, 10:45 PM
Well, I'm guessing that it won't be in a traditional 12 oz can but a slim version mimicking the original 8.3 oz slim can.

CR

[ 08-25-2006, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Coco Rico ]

Rob The SURGE Drinker
08-26-2006, 01:47 AM
they have 12 packs of the 8 oz can here in my area, in a square box. im wondering if the 12 oz cans will also be distrubited in fridgepack-type packages...

Nick Laugher
08-26-2006, 03:39 PM
I can't see Redbull using a standard 12oz can, it's definitely going to be slimmed if anything. If it's not, I think this product's doomed from the start. As for the comment about the energy drink section becoming like the soda section... somehow I can't see Liter bottles of energy drinks taking off. 24oz's are crazy enough, who in their right mind would buy a liter? I think it's safe to say that for the time being, the energy drink section is going to stay fairly consistant, 8oz and 16oz, with the occasional oddball... As for this move from Redbull, I really can't see the justification here... paying a lot more for 4 more ounces when you can get a 16oz can of a superior product for (im assuming) the same price. All I'm saying is, if this move doesn't help Redbull, it's the start of a slow decline into the red.

RedBullFan
08-26-2006, 07:41 PM
I'm interested to see what happends to the 8.3 oz can if RB is marketing the new "12oz" @ $2.49. Will it eventually go away? I read someone thinks the 16oz did'nt do to well. If RB is selling 12oz for $2.49, why not sell the 16oz for $2.99? In Vegas, I bought a RB 16oz for $3.99 on the strip and $3.49 off the strip.

Why does'nt RB just lower their prices?

David J.
08-26-2006, 07:52 PM
Because people are willing to pay that much, and as a result -- maximum profit.

The same with Fast Food companies, but greed is a factor with them.

leisuredrummer
08-27-2006, 08:40 PM
8.3 is still all your body needs and can logically use. The 12oz. is simply an option for people who feel like they want more. The consumer asked for it and Red Bull delivered. They still haven't changed their tune about 8.3oz. being all that your body needs.

The 16oz. did amazingly well in LV. RB decided to go with the 12oz. to be an innovator in the energy drink category rather than a follower.

The can is slightly thinner and slightly taller than a normal 12oz. can.

[ 08-27-2006, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: leisuredrummer ]

David J.
08-27-2006, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by leisuredrummer:
8.3 is still all your body needs and can logically use. I really, really doubt that being true.

leisuredrummer
08-27-2006, 10:36 PM
I don't.

fusion
08-27-2006, 11:05 PM
All your body needs? For what time frame?

leisuredrummer
08-27-2006, 11:57 PM
I believe it's 4-6 hours. Once your body is replenished of all of the indgredients, your body naturally flushes out all of the extra that you take in.

Red Bull isn't meant to be a refreshment but rather an energy drink, if you can get the same punch with half the size, why choke down 16oz? Why take 4 asprin when you can take 1 Aleve?

Mr Zabe
08-28-2006, 03:24 AM
Where is Greg when we need him? :(
I'm not an expert in the field but some of the so called health effects of ED ingredients have not been scientifically quantified or proven.

Mind over matter in an 8.3oz can?????

Ron Swedelson
08-28-2006, 11:02 AM
Red Bull 12 packs are in fridge packs here in CA.

DrPepperYummy
08-28-2006, 01:28 PM
The redbull 12oz cans seem to be the same size as everyone elses 16oz cans... so they appear equal in height and consumers may make the assumption without looking for the ounces but put more value on a redbull vs other brands... even if the retail doesn't match up per ounce.

I think redbull users are the type who want the boost of energy but not a drink to last them for an hour to drink down... so the 16oz buyers are a different market drawn in by the other companies who want to sit and sip all day... but I see many people I know throwing away half a can cause it got warm...

SO I think redbull will continue to dominate with brand name and world sales overall vs any other company in the end... at least untill I see every weird sporting event sponsored by monster instead of redbull.

I say we screw them all and bring back Snapple Elements (all 6 flavors) in full force... who's with me!

DirtyDirt
08-28-2006, 02:38 PM
Aside from a 16 oz can getting warm by the time it's finish, it's horrible. You feel like you at all you can eat at a buffet. I think Red Bull is once again right on the money with this one. I am excited to see this one launched and you will see all the competitors scramble to come out with something to top it. AS far as pricing goes, watch T.V., do you see ads for BMW, Mercedes and other upscale cars? You don't! because they're premium cars, you want a BMW, you're going to pay. You want Red Bull, a premium energy drink, you have to pay...no deals here... that's my take....

Mr Zabe
08-28-2006, 03:55 PM
LOL
I watch a lot of the PGA tour through out the year.
I do see lower priced premium cars advertised. I also see them advertised in Playboy as well. Even the high ended luxury "toys" are clawing for market share now a days.

IMO, not that I would know LOL, I'm guessing that Red Bull dose not have as strong of a "Snob" appeal as it once had being the industry gold standard ED. Many more people are counting their coins and looking for value added products.

pinkdogg
08-28-2006, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Mr Zabe:
LOL
I watch a lot of the PGA tour through out the year.
I do see lower priced premium cars advertised. I also see them advertised in Playboy as well. Even the high ended luxury "toys" are clawing for market share now a days.

IMO, not that I would know LOL, I'm guessing that Red Bull dose not have as strong of a "Snob" appeal as it once had being the industry gold standard ED. Many more people are counting their coins and looking for value added products. If you watch a lot of the PGA Tour take a look at Chris Dimarco right sleeve insignia. RED BULL

SumPoosieCat
08-29-2006, 01:06 AM
It seems Red Bull is throwing things against the wall to see what sticks... they stuck with the little 8 ounce can WAY to long. They got left in the dust. What they have not figured out yet is their product does not taste very good and trying to force people to drink more of it .... 12 or 16 ounces at a time is just plain silly. They have lost huge market share because others are making better tasting energy drinks.

I guess what I am trying to say is.... its the FLAVOR stupid ! Make a Red Bull lemon lime and a Red Bull orange and quit with this bigger can stuff... you just look silly.

Coco Rico
08-29-2006, 10:40 AM
TTB,

Anyone that says it's about taste and flavor, clearly does not fully comprehend the energy drink category. Red Bull is the dominant energy drink because of its efficacy and its image. People believe it works and believe in the image and lifestyle it represents.

16oz e-drinks have risen in popularity because of perceived value. The majority of 16oz drinkers are trading in their sodas and isotonics for something different. They are not as tuned in to energy benefits and are more interested in something to sip on with their lunch. It's a completely different consumer.

I hardly think you can credibly say that Red Bull has been left in the dust. They are still the dominant energy drink in both sales and brand identity.

CR

Mr Zabe
08-29-2006, 11:01 AM
Coco,
Just my arm chair opinion:
It appears that there are a good number of quasi neo ED drinkers that are seeking a more tolerable drink. Yes there is a hard core market of dedicated drinkers that would drink battery acid if it gave them a boost. But there is a growing market for good tasting EDs that has yet to be fully exploited with tasty EDs.

[ 08-29-2006, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Mr Zabe ]

SumPoosieCat
08-29-2006, 11:14 AM
Coco you could not be more wrong... this is exactly why Red Bull has lost market share and is now number 2 in the number one market in the USA and that is LA California. Red Bull is all that and a box of chocolate... HOWEVER ! Red Bull STILL doesn't get it... they still don't understand that (today) the consumer can get a great energy drink and not have to suffer drinking it.
Coco you can argue until you are blue in the face but the facts are this... just a few years ago Red Bull dominated everywhere... now they have lost huge market share and are no longer number one in several markets across the country. What has happend... well for one Monster and others have come out with a variety of products that work just as well AND taste much better. The 16 ounce RB can in Vegas was a complete flop and I doubt a 12 ounce can will do much better unless it is priced accordingly. Wake up Red Bull..... try some new flavors...its not 1999 anymore.

Coco Rico
08-29-2006, 12:33 PM
TTB,

Just because you believe something, doesn't make it true. How do you know Red Bull's 16oz was a flop? Do you have data that no one else does? Can't you concede the possibility that their 16oz test was actually a bit of misdirection in order to make the launch of their 12oz even more of a surprise? Do you know for a fact that they won't be releasing it in time once the prove success with the 12oz?

One question, if flavor is the deciding factor for consumers as you argue, how come all the "better tasting" 8.3 oz competitors to Red Bull flopped? If taste is the deciding factor, how come your product moved to a 16oz package? Why didn't you set the world on fire with your "better testing" product in its original package???

The answer is that the 16oz package offers consumers the perception of value and offers them an alternative to their traditional soda. Again, the majority of 16oz drinkers are soda/isotonic drinkers that are branching out to something new. This is how one explains why Red Bull has gradually lost share points but has not lost sales velocity. They are still growing at about 40% over last year - which is phenomenal!

CR

Ron Swedelson
08-29-2006, 01:03 PM
Dirty Dirt...I do see a lot of TV adds for Mercedes and BMW and Jag's and Lexus and all thoes upscale cars...but I do agree with you, if you want a premium brand, you are going to pay for it.
TTB, I got to disagree with you there in the whole taste issue. Yes, if you ask 100 people, what would they want in an energy drink, I am sure 100 of them would say they want it to taste good, or like something they enjoy. But I guarantee 47 of them will then run to the store and buy a Red Bull, 26 of them will buy a Monster, 20 will buy a Rockstar, and the other 7 people will buy a drink that says it will taste like a juice or a soda. It is not about taste with the energy drink market, it is about #1, function and effectivenes, #2 Value, #3 Avalibility. Red Bull is not forcing their 12 oz on anyone, just another avalibility to help keep them the overall leader. I have a Cold Red Bull next to me right now. Is it my favorite flavored beverage? No. Even Red Bull corporatly says their drink is not about flavor. Look at the top 3 brands, Rock Star, Monster and Red Bull...all similar in taste, each adding something slightly different to not be a complete copycat, but all similar. That should prove right there a great tasting energy drink will not win it all. 80% of the market shows that. SP is a good flavored drink, so are some of the XTZ Teas, and BAWLS, and many other energizing drinks. But they will not outsell the top dogs. They may in a few select stores or core locations. But overall they will not do it. Flavor will not dictate its sales.

Topher
08-29-2006, 01:12 PM
You build it, they will come. RB has come out with both different packages and a sugar free. Look at how well those have done. If RB comes out with the 12oz, people will buy it.

Nick Laugher
08-29-2006, 04:46 PM
I completely disagree with the notion that Redbull is a premium energy drink that deserves the position of being compared to a BMW.

What makes Redbull such a premium drink other than the fact it costs more? There are literally dozens of other energy drinks with better taste, ingredients and overall appeal. To say that Redbull is a "premium" energy drink is just silly. Redbull was basically the first mainstream success in the energy drink category, and I give them mad credit for that. But they're just flogging a dead horse, the brand is dying with the inception of better, cheaper alternatives.

Anyway, the only thing I can see that would even come close to making Redbull "premium" is its well established brand name, and even that knows limits. Redbull's stranglehold on the market is slowly easing up, I've seen about 4/5's of the people I know who drink Energy Drinks change from Redbull to something else because Redbull is just too expensive for such a mediocre product.

My two cents? Redbull's got one foot in the grave, and if the 16oz can didn't do anything for them, there's little chance a 12oz can will, thus, the other foot will follow.

SumPoosieCat
08-29-2006, 04:53 PM
Wow... I guess you guys just don't get it at all.

When you have only 8 ounces to drink taste may not be as important as function... BUT when you have to drink 12 or 16 ounces you better have a good tasting product.

Understand this... Red Bull is a good 8 ounce product... it is a horrible 16 ounce product and a bad 12 ounce product.

Coco Red Bull 16 ounce can in Vegas was selling 1 to 9 compared to Monster. Believe it or not! I would call 9 to 1 a flop wouldn't you? At 3.69 a can it was a bad joke.

For years Red Bull thought the 8 ounce can was it... I switched my packaging from a 12 ounce bottle to a 8 and 16 ounce can to compete with the market.

You keep saying taste doesn't matter but IT DOES !!! Not as much when you only have to mix or drink 8 ounces. But if you are going to ask people to drink 12 or 16 ounces of some energy drink even a great selling industry standard like Red Bull it might help if it didn't taste like sour salt!

They gave up on the 16 ounce can because only the die hard could actually drink 16 ounces of the stuff. Now they are trying a 12 ounce can to see if the public can stomach that.... I think the human pallet has a 8.3 ounce max on the stuff.

It's not the size of the can !!! It's what's in the can !!!

-VV-
08-29-2006, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by TallThinBlonde:
Wow... I guess you guys just don't get it at all.

It's not the size of the can !!! It's what's in the can !!! I guess Red Bull has alot to learn from you.

And what I never hear mentioned is that there are ALOT of people who actually like the taste of Red Bull. What else would explain companies like Von Dutch trying so hard to perfectly mimic it?

In my personal opinion, I think it's important to realize that many of the people forecasting the "inevitable" demise of Red Bull are in many cases the same people who said it would never get off the ground. Why is it that all these people who have such amazing insight into what it takes to be a number one brand and remain a number one brand are never number one brands themselves? Maybe, just maybe, it's because the companies that are able to pull off developing top 5 brands actually know a thing or two that they don't?

That's not to say companies don't make mistakes. I don't know a company who hasn't, but come on. How many years are we going to have to sit through "RedBull is really doomed this time" posts before people stop paying attention?

fusion
08-29-2006, 06:25 PM
Von Dutch was a Rockstar energy drink. And IMHO, it tasted nothing like Red Bull.

Coco Rico
08-29-2006, 10:35 PM
VV,

Well said. I couldn't agree more.

CR

SumPoosieCat
08-30-2006, 12:19 AM
VW and Coco you two are something else...

I never said Red Bull was doomed. I did say they are a bit late and a bit misguided.

A 16 ounce can of Red Bull ??? Who is going to drink that?

A 12 ounce can of Red Bull ??? Who can drink that?

The public has determined 8.3 ounces is about all they can stand.

Its not about the size of the can !!! It's about what is in the can !!!

You would think Red Bull had figured that out... but then again these are the same wise people that came out with a 16 ounce can of Red Bull for $3.69 !!!

Sometimes the answer is right in front of you...

If your going to make people drink more of it... make it TASTE BETTER !!!

Let me put it this way...

If you had a cough and had to take some nasty medicine to get rid of it would you take the bottle that says "Take Two Table Spoons"

or would you take the one that says "Take Twelve Table Spoons"

Coco Rico
08-30-2006, 04:08 AM
TTB,

You have established that you personally do not like the taste of Red Bull. That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Fortunately for Red Bull, there are literally millions and millions of people world wide that disagree with you. So in this case, you are wrong.

Sidenote - if it's all just about what's in the can and the taste why did 16oz become successful when no other 8.3 oz even came close?

CR

SumPoosieCat
08-30-2006, 09:57 AM
Coco.... lol ....come on you know the answer to that!!!

Millions and millions drink RB for the function not the taste Coco...

and.... you just answered your own question!

The 16 ounce can took off for several reasons... one being customer value and two taste and choices. Monster gave you choices and a decent flavor.

Is it possible... just possible Coco that the 16 ounce can flopped because most people have no interest in drinking 16 ounces of Red Bull at one time. Is it possible?

Nick Laugher
08-30-2006, 10:39 AM
First of all TTB, I'd say you're more than a little biased on this subject. Secondly, there is little to no difference in drinking a 16oz of Rockstar or No Fear and 16oz of Redbull. It's not like they're MILES apart in taste. I used to drink 2 Redbull right in a row, that's 16oz, never bothered me. I think you're just making mountains out of molehills at this point.

Ron Swedelson
08-30-2006, 12:43 PM
Why did Rockstar 8 oz fail? Not a good value for what you were buying. 9 to 1 to one of the top guys is actually a pretty good ratio for most energy drinks, but simply not for the #1 drink. Just about any other company out there would take a 9 to 1 ratio of one of the top 3 companies.
What is the main thing people say when they find a drink that works for them "This stuff works", and sometimes you get the "and it actually tastes good". These drinks are not made to quench your thirst. Red Bull was not made for flavor, but taste. Millions have come to like the taste of Red Bull, as I am one of them. But that does not mean its their favorite flavor. Even when you get that gross cough syrup, when you have a cold, and it works, you don't mind its flavor.
I would say Red Bull is a premium energy drink. Higher price, that has maintained, good clean package, good clean POS, associated with bars and parties, high quality ingredients. Rockstar and Monster I believe are there as well. But because they opened the door with the 16 oz. If they both came out in only an 8oz, I do not think either one of them would have survived.
I do believe Red Bull was a little late on the changing sizes. They were right to not do it when Rockstar and Monster came out. They were right to stand ground the next year when these guys kept growing, but after that, they should have done something. Its hard to really get down on them when overall they are still the #1 brand, and #1 world wide. I guess they have done a few things right. But like most people, I was very biased against them and their thinking untill I actually worked for them and saw the machine in motion.

SumPoosieCat
08-30-2006, 01:50 PM
Nick I am biased? No... Nick I speak from experience. I have started and invented a successful energy drink from scratch. Where many have come and gone I have been here since 2001. I still have a lot to learn but I have also learned a lot along the way.

IMO Red Bull has made some huge mistakes. We all agree the Red Bull "brand" is very strong. My point has been and will continue to be their one weakness is the taste of their product. It works in a 8 ounce can but you are going to lose many when you ask them to drink 12 or 16 ounces of the stuff. For some its no problem but for most it points out the problem.

Red Bull lemon lime and Red Bull orange will add more customers not a bigger can !!!

The number one reason someone drinks another energy drink other than Red Bull is because they can't stand the taste of Red Bull. Why not take the reason away???

Why fight making a better tasting flavor...why?

Nick Laugher
08-30-2006, 03:28 PM
I drink other energy drinks not because I hate the taste of Redbull, but because there are simply better energy drinks out there. You're acting like Redbull has some horrid, bleach flavour or something, if Redbull has such a horrific taste, than why do so many other energy drink companys copy the flavour?

TallThinBlonde, like it or not, your opinion is less swaying because you are in fact a competitor of Redbull, you can say you're not biased, but because of your position, you are. Would you be more inclined to listen to the opinions of several energy drink enthusiasts with no brand loyalty, or someone from the company of a rival product? It's just common sense.

I wouldn't say Redbull has made any huge mistakes, instead of releasing their 16oz and 12oz cans nationwide, they've done small test-runs, this is far from being a mistake. I personally think Redbull should stick to the 8oz, because im not so sure the different sizes will catch on, people have come to expect Redbull in small, 8oz cans. But it is true that Monster and Rockstar are gaining on Redbull, and I hardly see how releasing larger sizes to compete with them is a mistake. People buy Redbull and expect its taste, if you were to release other Redbull flavours, it would just be more costly to develop and would most likely flop.

All I'm saying is, I don't have much faith in the 12oz, but Redbull could surprise me.

Also, taste is subjective, you can't make a statement with fact that Redbull tastes bad, that's only an opinion and as Coco said, millions of people disagree with that opinion.

NRgizR
08-30-2006, 03:40 PM
TTB wrote,
Posted 5-14-06
It seems for now the 8 ounce can is dead except for on premise
Posted 5-15-06
I have only been watching Cstore sales in two areas but all 8 ounce cans in these areas are getting their butt kicked by the 16 ounce can. Is it true across the nation I do not know but in these areas 16 ounce is king.
5-16-06
Monster and the 16 ounce can seem to be taking over.
5-17-6
The 16 ounce can is really knocking Red Bull around.
5-18-06
Rockstar and Monster have really made an impact with the 16 ounce can. It seems to be the industry standard. The little 8 ounce can seems to be on the back burner. It's interesting to see how fast things change.
5-18-06
Worldwide I am sure you are right but in the USA its the 16 ounce can according to Ball, Rexam, and Crowne. The 8 ounce can is quickly becoming an on premise only. What shocked me even more is the rapid growth of the Monster 24 ounce can.
5-19-06
Yes Cstorecat it is clear to see that the 16 ounce can is now the rule in the USA ! Red Bull is late to the party on the 16 ounce can and pricing their new 16.9 can at 3.69 is also a huge mistake in my opinion. They seem kinda out of touch with what is going on in this market now.
5-25-06
The point is NRgizR an ever growing percentage of the people ARE NOT choosing to buy a 2 dollar 8 ounce can. They are choosing to buy a 2 dollar 16 ounce can. That is why Monster has taken over the Number One spot in a few areas and poised to take over the Number One spot in more than a dozen areas around the country. To sit back and pretend that what is quickly happening in the market place is silly. Who thought 2 years ago Rockstar and Monster would be digging so deep into the pockets of Red Bull?
Granted Red Bull is not in the poor house but in 2006 more energy drink in the USA will be sold in a 16 ounce can than in an 8 ounce can. That... is big news!
5-27-06
Look Red Bull was the thing a few years ago but now you can see Monster and Rockstar and the 16 ounce can are the hot thing today.
5-27-06
Just 24 months ago Red Bull was king throughout the USA... today they are not! The 16 ounce can has hit them and hit them hard. What do they do now? Do they have a plan?
5-28-06
The question is if Red Bull continues to lose market share and the trend continues with the 16 ounce can... will these Red Bull only distributors have to start cutting back??? Is the ride over?
5-29-06
By the way... because Red Bull has not dropped their price point Rockstar and Monster have been allowed to grow and grow! Why? because people believe they get more value with a 16 ounce can. If Monster and Rockstar could they would send a letter to Red Bull corporate thanking them for keeping their price point, I am sure they hope Red Bull continues to believe they should charge the public nearly twice as much for a like product.


ETC......
Sorry for all the past words of wisdom. But TTB, I have to ask; When did you come up with the taste thing? Apparently it has been all about the size of the can, over and over again. You ask if Red Bull has a plan and then, since it doesn't make sense to you, it's a joke. I really think, no matter what RB would have come out with, you would have thought it to be a fop. You should take a wait and see approach before you bash things. You learn more by observing and listening, not by shooting off your bias opinion.
If your brand taste so good why is it not a blip on the screen?

Ron Swedelson
08-30-2006, 06:26 PM
I'd like a 12 oz...I know an 8oz, its two maybe 3 big chugs and its gone. I enjoy it when it is cold and it's mid day durring the work shift. Or when I am playing softball and have a cold Red Bull.

SumPoosieCat
08-30-2006, 06:51 PM
NRgizR thanks for making my point !

I have provided the answer over and over again. Did you think the correct response to Monster and Rockstar was a 16 ounce Red Bull can for 3.69 ??? A multi billion dollar company decided that to combat Monster and Rockstar pump out a 16 ounce can for 3.69?

Please... give me a break!

I am not on here for you to agree or disagree with me I am on this board giving you my opinion.

If you think Red Bull is on the mark with its 12 and 16 ounce can... tell me why?

I guess they agreed with me and finally decided to do something... that something being a 12 and 16 ounce can but I believe it is off the mark.

Based on the dismal sales of the 16 ounce can in Vegas I don't think they get it.

Like I said before... no one has a stronger "Brand" than Red Bull....so.... instead of changing the SIZE of the can... change what goes inside of it.

A bigger can is only going to excite the most hardy Red Bull drinker... the objective should be to bring MORE people to the brand!

The way to do that is simple... Red Bull Orange and Red Bull Lemon Lime.

Myself, like many would drink Red Bull if they made a drink I could actually drink!

Topher
08-31-2006, 10:19 AM
I agree with you -VV- ....Red Bull has and is doing something right. They wouldnt be #1 if they werent. All the Red Bull haters need to realize this. Will Red Bull always be #1? Whos knows really.

Jablonzo
08-31-2006, 02:19 PM
wow am i the only one who likes the taste of red bull?

wanna talk about bad tasting copy cats try sobe's adrenaline rush(and I love sobe!).

Ron Swedelson
08-31-2006, 05:15 PM
I like Red Bulls taste...Adrenaline rush I sort of like...I havent had it in years...but kind of tasted like a peach and a flat squirt.

Nick Laugher
08-31-2006, 05:44 PM
I dont LOVE the taste of Redbull, but I definitely dont think it deserves the hate TTB is giving it. It's a good flavour.

SumPoosieCat
09-01-2006, 01:13 AM
Wow... its like talking to a brick wall. :rolleyes:

Coco Rico
09-01-2006, 02:58 AM
At least you can admit it.

CR

[ 09-01-2006, 02:59 AM: Message edited by: Coco Rico ]

EnergyGermany
09-03-2006, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by NRGSLLR@:
Okay the news is out! What do you guys think? Good Move or Not? It appears as though the target retail is $2.49 It appears as though the 16oz didn't work as well as expected! IsnĀ“t it now Red Bull coming down to earth. I was always reading no we at Red Bull will never go into any other packaging and we are growing and growing and growing......the true story is in the US the loose market share in Germany they already lost the battle against the 1,5l PET market. In the Off trade those brands are now volume leaders...yes red bull is still the largest single brand ...but not more.

It will be interesting to see what kind of story they now create.

C-Note
09-03-2006, 09:19 PM
Wow!!! All this talk about Red Bull.
As I like to tell baseball players and fans alike.

"They don't BOO nobody's", meaning that people always hate/dislike successful players. Prime example would be Barry Bonds, and that was before all the steroid hype. People always booed him in opposing parks.

All this relates to the #1 energy drink Red Bull.

Bottom line: without Red Bull this category would not even exist. Red Bull is to this category, as Coke and Pepsi are to the Colas.

As far as flavor or taste of enery drinks go try CHEETAH ENERGY DRINK. If it is hard to find send me a message and I will try and get some to you.

NRGSLLR@
09-06-2006, 11:41 AM
Let's change the direction a little bit here. I have heard from several RB distributors that Red Bull is asking them to maintain the same gross profit dollar on the 12oz vs. the 8oz, to me it seems like the distributor will now sell the same volume in 2 cases he once sold in three, so the $24 he made off three cases will now be $16 on two cases. All those consumers who used to by two cans may now be satisfied with 1 can. Seems like a losing proposition for the distributor and retailer. IMO

Ron Swedelson
09-06-2006, 11:50 AM
I don't think so. There will be some initial swaps in purchase, but I dont think the majority will say, instead of buying 3 cans they will just buy 2...most will say, cool...I can buy 3 cans and have more in each can. Even when Red Bull 4 packs are on sale, single cans still sold just as fast.

greg
09-06-2006, 12:35 PM
Concerning different packages... Even though the ED category is still young as a whole it must go through growing pains. The whole size thing is one of those pains.
I believe the category is here to stay and within 5-7 years the ED sizes will be comparable to those of the soda category. Perhaps not 2 ltr sizes but different options as a whole to meet individual consumer wants and needs.
ED's are now just getting the respect they deserve and the shake out will continue.
Ask Some Old Old Pepsi Cola guys what they know about how Pepsi made it self a contender against the Cola category innovater and they will tell you simply, "We gave the consumer twice the cola for the regular price"
Pepsi Cola hits the spot, 12 whole ounces thats a lot!"

[ 09-06-2006, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: greg ]

SumPoosieCat
09-06-2006, 09:35 PM
Red Bull does not need a bigger can ... the 16 ounce can proofed that! What they need is a few, hopefully better tasting flavors.

Mr Zabe
09-06-2006, 10:05 PM
Another arm chair thought.

Look what happened when Coca Cola screwed with Coke II.

Red Bull should not change a thing to their ground breaking ED. I would spiff up the marketing to reflect that when you drink a red bull you are drinking a part of ED history.
Sort of like Coke's "the real thing" adds.

fusion
09-06-2006, 10:23 PM
In another world, ED means something totally different.

Just a little humor for this evening. smile.gif

Mr Zabe
09-07-2006, 12:02 AM
OMG....Fusion you raise a good point. LOLOLOL

greg
09-07-2006, 09:09 AM
My company sells a product for ED!!! It's called Black Pearl...we also sell an ED called REDLINE. Some people will argue that if you have too many ED's it could cause ED because of the Stimulants and the vaso constriction.
just a thought.

NRGSLLR@
09-07-2006, 01:33 PM
Greg, maybe you could get Bob Dole as a spokesman

greg
09-07-2006, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by NRGSLLR@:
Greg, maybe you could get Bob Dole as a spokesman I think he "peaked" years ago! LOL

CStoreCatMan
09-08-2006, 12:17 PM
Okay, all the RB love and hate aside. RB is still the #1 ED worldwide...BUT they have felt the pressure to compete with larger packages. Therefore, I think the 12oz can will help them to recapture some of their lost sales, but it will not catapult them back into the dominance they once enjoyed in the category. In the retail segement, RB has lost about 10% of their market share in the last year. That's a very fast decline for such a big brand. RB will need to vamp up its marketing campaign to really let the brand shine and figure out how to create a balance between the 8oz and 12oz cans. I would be concerned about the new can cannibalizing sales of the 8oz...what are your thoughts on that?

greg
09-08-2006, 12:29 PM
CSTORECATMAN-
Pricing vs Value...That will be what keeps RB on top or has them fall.

Mr Zabe
09-08-2006, 01:00 PM
I agree yet we live in a quasi value(price) world of volume vs quality. (Dose this make any sense?)

[ 09-08-2006, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Mr Zabe ]

NRGSLLR@
09-11-2006, 10:09 AM
Depends on the Retail. If a 12oz Red Bull sells for less than $2.49 it will quickly erode the $2.19 8oz market. I have seen RB 8oz as hight as $2.29 So... as I said, depends on the retail. I can't see anyone paying much more than $2.49 for 12oz JMO

Coco Rico
09-11-2006, 04:57 PM
I think Red Bull is going for a $2.79-$2.89 price point for the 12oz. I think I saw somewhere that this would net the retailers about $1.14 in profit per can sold. If I was a retailer, I would push the hell out of this product since this is almost double the profit they would generate from an 8oz Red Bull.

If it takes off and that price point is successful, I guarantee you are going to see retailers all across the board raise the prices of every single 16oz to at least the price of the new 12oz if not higher. This would net retailers some serious increases in profit.

The benefit to Red Bull is that it will finally protect their 8oz package from being too closely priced to its 16oz competitors. Effectively getting rid of the "twice-as-much-for-the-same-price-as-Red Bull" perception that all 16oz EDs currently have. If it works, this could end up being one of the smartest things Red Bull has ever done.

CR

leisuredrummer
09-11-2006, 05:18 PM
Red Bull is going nowhere. They stick to what works. The 12oz is simply an option for people who want a little more, yet they aren't conforming to the trend of "bigger is better" or making different flavors. Everybody knows what happened to Coca-Cola when they tried to change their formula. Red Bull has a reputation and people base other energy drinks off Red Bull's image.

How much you wanna bet that an entire new line of 12oz energy drinks will follow in Red Bulls steps?

greg
09-11-2006, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by leisuredrummer:
Red Bull is going nowhere. They stick to what works. The 12oz is simply an option for people who want a little more, yet they aren't conforming to the trend of "bigger is better" or making different flavors. Everybody knows what happened to Coca-Cola when they tried to change their formula. Red Bull has a reputation and people base other energy drinks off Red Bull's image.

How much you wanna bet that an entire new line of 12oz energy drinks will follow in Red Bulls steps? HUGE Difference between changing packaging and changing formulas!!

How would Monster, Rockstar, Full Throttle et al now compete with RB in a 12oz package? They already sell twice the amount of Energy drink for the same price as a RB 8oz? There would have to be newcomers to the ED category to effectively compete in the 12 oz market. By the 16oz guys going down to a 12 oz package they would obviously have to give up price to make it attractive as well as a value. Margin, which I believe is already tight on a 16oz package would make it even smaller in a 12oz package. The Monster & Rockstars would have to come in about $1.79-$1.99 just to maintain their customer base.
I don't see it happening.......RB has just beaten the 16oz'ers at there own game. They have created an in between version of a poular ED that they know customers will buy based on value, reputation, and believe it or not, taste.They may even win back some of their old customers.

[ 09-11-2006, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: greg ]

leisuredrummer
09-11-2006, 05:47 PM
With the formula deal, I was referring to a guy who said RB is losing business until they come out with different flavors.

As for the package, Im saying new comers will pop up with 12oz cans. A number of the 16oz. energy drinks have tried to size down with an 8oz. option and it just doesnt work for them.

I am pro Red Bull. Im not really sure on what your stance is Greg.

Mr Zabe
09-11-2006, 05:51 PM
Greg,
Once again your analysis about RB is right on target. RB has what's known as a real
strong "goodwill" perception with it's consumers.

[ 09-11-2006, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Mr Zabe ]

greg
09-12-2006, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by leisuredrummer:
With the formula deal, I was referring to a guy who said RB is losing business until they come out with different flavors.

As for the package, Im saying new comers will pop up with 12oz cans. A number of the 16oz. energy drinks have tried to size down with an 8oz. option and it just doesnt work for them.

I am pro Red Bull. Im not really sure on what your stance is Greg. I haven't any allegiances to RB or any other big guy drink out there. Part of my job is marketing and analysis. I have a product out there but it is different than RB and the rest. The only similarity is that we are going after the same customers.

greg
09-12-2006, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Mr Zabe:
Greg,
Once again your analysis about RB is right on target. RB has what's known as a real
strong "goodwill" perception with it's consumers. Thanks Mr. Zabe. I really do feel that RB has one upped the competition by once again taken the road less traveled instead of being another "me to" product.

NRGSLLR@
09-13-2006, 12:04 PM
Do you believe the ED customer will pay $2.89 for a RB when they can still get a Monster for $1.99 or 2 for $3 on deal? I really don't think RB has "beaten anyone at their own game", they have just shown us again that they are not reacting to what their own consumers are looking for. By that I mean a 16oz, if RB's customers aren't looking for 16oz, why are they losing so much market share to Monster? I don't see the 12oz impacting anyone but RB. If agree that $1.14 in margin is a nice change for the retailer vs. the $.66 they are currently making, however, what about the distributor? They are the ones being left out of the equation. They are still being asked to sell RB at $8 margin. 8oz or 12oz.

greg
09-13-2006, 12:28 PM
The competition of RB has essentially made them a premium brand by pricing alone. The connotation that Monster, Rockstar, etc are cheaper brands were manifested in the pricing. How else does a consumer look at twice the amount of product/liquid for the same price. RB was elevated to a status(percieved or real) by their competitions zeal to "buy" market share. Now RB is using that status to their advantage in packaging and price.
As for losing market share to Monster I stand by my statement of Hansens "buying" market share by pricing. The taste, to me at least, is not that discerning.
It is a value propositon given to the consumer. By RB coming out with a 12oz for a marginally higher cost to consumer the consumer will be enticed to forego the extra 4oz's of product to enjoy the feeling and status that goes with being seen as a "premium brand " consumer.

SumPoosieCat
09-13-2006, 10:03 PM
Greg... have you been following Hansen's stock price over the last year???

greg
09-14-2006, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by TallThinBlonde:
Greg... have you been following Hansen's stock price over the last year??? I have.....Whats your point?
Unlike most on this board I do not pigeon hole Hansens as just the makers of MONSTER Energy. Hansens has a great line of products that where on the market long before Monster. Hansen's offers natural sodas, fruit juices, energy drinks and energy sports drinks, fruit juice smoothies sparkling lemonades and orangeades, noncarbonated ready-to-drink iced teas, seltzer waters, lemonades, juice cocktails, children's multivitamin juice drinks, and noncarbonated lightly flavored energy waters. The company also provides vitamin and mineral drink mixes in powdered form. Not all of the products they sell are under the "Hansen's" moniker.

Perhaps Hansen's success in other segments of the Beverage category along with their succes of Monster and their new distribution agreement with AB contributed to a soaring stock price.

Red Sox fan
09-14-2006, 05:37 PM
Greg,

you are wrong. Hansen's Huge stock gain is a direct result of their Monster sales. I don't care what else they make..Plain and simple.

NRGSLLR@
09-15-2006, 09:56 AM
Greg,
I agree with Red Sox fan, I know Hansen's was for sale 3 years ago for around $150MM. They are now valued at over $2B, the only thing they have done in the last 3 years that is "New" is grow Monster. By the way if you listen to Hansen's Quarterly Reports on their web broadcasts they are mostly discusssing the success of Monster and Energy drinks.

greg
09-15-2006, 10:41 AM
Ok Everyone, I let my feelings get in the way of facts.
I did some research and sure as hell Hansens success is derived solely on Monster/Lost.
The first 3 months of 2006 Hansens had GROSS sales of $137.8mm of which DSD's, or Energy Drinks if will, sold $100mm. Damn was I way off base.

However NRGSLLR, I did find out that as of this morning the Market capitalization is $3.08 Billion.

Red Sox Fan-The Prsident of Monster Division makes $400k per year while the CEO makes $382K. I guess that is a testament to how well Monster is doing.

I stand corrected on the post about Hansens being more than just an Energy Drink Company. If it weren't for Monster hansens would only have $37mm in sales.

NRGSLLR@
09-15-2006, 11:15 AM
I wish I had the $150mm 3 years ago. Or today for that matter

Ron Swedelson
09-15-2006, 04:22 PM
I just wish I bought Hansens stock back in 1999 when I sold their product. Is lost doing anything? I have not seen it move in my area. But I guess the brand has a big following with the skate and surf crowd

Nick Laugher
09-15-2006, 09:42 PM
Not as much as you'd think, fairly mediocre popularity.

David J.
09-15-2006, 11:00 PM
I've only see a few pockets of Lost in my area. It ends up at the store that sells (mostly, not all products) short-dated products.

At this store... Monster is sold for like a $1.67 after NYS taxes. Or two cans for three dollars. There are only 16 oz cans, not 8oz or 24oz (which there are only a few pockets of 24oz).

SumPoosieCat
09-16-2006, 12:50 AM
One of the few things NY is behind the times in.... energy drinks!

David J.
09-16-2006, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by TallThinBlonde:
One of the few things NY is behind the times in.... energy drinks! I make due with what I can. :D

I love my state regardless...

GRANT
09-29-2006, 05:02 PM
I never liked red bull and i never will therefore .......pibb rox

the saint
09-29-2006, 10:08 PM
yeah we got that all 4 times you have said it.

Nick Laugher
09-30-2006, 12:20 PM
Haha, nice.