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ALLPRO
10-23-2006, 09:09 PM
I finally saw the new 12oz Red Bull in my area today.
Wholesale: $42.00/24 12oz Cans. MSRP is $3.29
Man, It looks exactly like the 8oz. You have to really look closely to notice the difference between the 8oz and 12oz.
Not very exciting.
Just my opinion.....

SumPoosieCat
10-23-2006, 10:29 PM
Well... I guess the failure of the 16 ounce can left the Red Bull experts thinking maybe 12 would be better....???

I looked in a cooler at the local convenience store and saw two huge rows of all the Rockstar offerings...all I can say is wow! It really did look nice and first rate. I saw another energy drink right below it that only had two slots.... It was a company called Red Bull. My how things have changed in the last 24 months. Red Bull wake up!

Great job Rockstar!

NRGSLLR@
10-24-2006, 10:46 AM
TTB your Monster distributor must be asleep at the wheel. You must be in Florida

Ron Swedelson
10-24-2006, 10:49 AM
It is funny seeing the different skus....I have not seen Red Bull loose any shelf space here in the Bay Area, actually gaining space because of the 12 pack, and probably the 12 oz comming soon here. But instead of seeing a whole row of Rock Star, it is split between all their skus. It shows how powerful Red Bull still is. Red Bull is obvously a huge power house, and they are not loosing money or sales. But, it is obvious, if they do not keep up with the deman, they will obtain less and less of the NEW business. That is one of the most important factors....you need busines today to cash your check, but you need New busines to make sure you can get your raise next week.

ALLPRO
10-24-2006, 11:36 AM
I am with TTB, The Rockstar lineup in the cooler looka awesome. The new "iron plate" can is very cool. Some stores have told me that the new sku's are not turning a fast as they had hoped. It still looks cool though!

Rob The SURGE Drinker
10-26-2006, 08:49 PM
picked one up in Jewl-Osco in Gurnee, IL. i diddnt notice the difference until i saw the price!

leisuredrummer
10-27-2006, 02:20 AM
Saw it here in Houston, TX. It's selling for $2.39 here.

BTW, Red Bull 16oz. didn't fail, it actually did so well that they decided to bring a bigger oz. into production but instead of doing what everybody else is doing with the 16oz. they decided to do something innovative rather than follow the trend.

It's only a matter of time now till the other companys jump on the 12oz. bandwagon.

SumPoosieCat
10-27-2006, 10:24 AM
Lol... Leisuredrummer...your funny! Red Bull 16 ounce was a disaster and the 12 ounce is just as bad. A 12 ounce can reminds the public they can have a Diet Coke for .59 cents!!!

Rockstar and Monster are growing leaps and bounds with new offerings and Red Bull is still trying to figure out the size of their can....

RedBullFan
10-27-2006, 10:17 PM
Leisuredrummer, what kind of account did you see it in? I seen tags in AmPm for $2.89

TTB, as Leisure said, the 16oz did not fail! When I was in Vegas when they first came out and I talked to two different 7-11 store managers and they both told me they could'nt keep the shelf full. One guy told me his first order was 5 cases and it was all gone in 3 days.

SumPoosieCat
10-28-2006, 09:42 AM
Oh.. well in that case .... I stand corrected... Red Bull 16 ounce has been a huge success!

fusion
10-28-2006, 07:24 PM
Yeah, because we all know that talking to just two store managers will tell you if a product is a success or a failure.

ALLPRO
10-28-2006, 07:33 PM
My opinion: Red Bull blew it. They should have gone where the action is...16oz. The 12oz can is too big to fit in the 8oz slots. The 12oz will only fit in the 16oz shelves. Red Bull could have taken 4 to 6 slots from Monster or Rockstar right out of the gate. I hate to say it, but Red Bull made a big mistake. The goal for Red Bull should have been to convert the 16oz consumer to 16oz Red Bull. 16oz consumers will not buy the 12oz. Only Red Bull 8oz consumers will go for the 12oz.

RedBullFan
10-28-2006, 11:00 PM
your right, talking to only 2 store managers does'nt mean that it was a success. but what do you know, your only a hand puppet. ;) that was a joke!

allpro, i hate to say it, but i have to agree with you. after talking to rbna guys (and of course my 2 store managers smile.gif , why not stick with the 16oz if it did so well in their testing?

SumPoosieCat
10-29-2006, 07:42 AM
The point is this... it was a complete failure! Red Bull seems to think that they can offer a 16 ounce can and charge 3.69 for it ????

Red Bull should write a book ... How to start and dominate a new drink category...and then throw it all away!!!

Rockstar and Monster have walked in with numerous offerings and left Red Bull still thinking about their can size...

fusion
10-29-2006, 08:12 PM
Saw 12oz from Victory Beverage (NJ/DE/MD/PA distributor) in an account today.. $2.79 was the retail.

ALLPRO
10-29-2006, 08:16 PM
Red Bull still has a chance to take over, take the "off season" to revamp and come out with 16oz Regular and SF and launch it for Spring 2007.

turbojames
10-29-2006, 10:39 PM
Red Bull is not dead yet. They will probably roll out some new offerings.

I think that Rockstar and Monster are going to be the two main energy drink companies in the future. I like Monster better though, because I feel that they are trying to grab the different types of energy drink consumers more effectively than Rockstar.

deepnenergy
10-30-2006, 06:06 PM
RB did bring energy to the US market and we must all say that they did a good job BUT (big but) RC did bring CSD to the market as well and look at them today. This 12oz is only a counter move from RB failing with their 16oz @ $3.79.

If RB don't want to keep loosing their market share maybe they should lower their price, but that won't happen and their larger ticket price on RB's 12 & 16 oz will be the best selling point for all the other premium 16oz beverages.

KEEP IT UP RED BULL

SumPoosieCat
10-30-2006, 07:51 PM
RB just seems out of touch with what is going on in the market place.

ALLPRO
10-30-2006, 09:21 PM
Does Red Bull expect Red Bull 12oz to compete with the 16oz market? My opinion, Red Bull 12oz is going to cannibalize their 8oz business.
I would love to hear from some Red Bull guys on this one.

SumPoosieCat
10-31-2006, 08:57 AM
Lol... we stopped hearing from them about a year ago!

greg
10-31-2006, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by deepnenergy:
RB did bring energy to the US market and we must all say that they did a good job BUT (big but) RC did bring CSD to the market as well and look at them today. This 12oz is only a counter move from RB failing with their 16oz @ $3.79.

If RB don't want to keep loosing their market share maybe they should lower their price, but that won't happen and their larger ticket price on RB's 12 & 16 oz will be the best selling point for all the other premium 16oz beverages.

KEEP IT UP RED BULL IBM and Hewlett Packard brought computers/software to the market place.....Microsoft took it to another level by innovation and change.
Thats what competition does in a capitalist marketplace. It makes companies excel and achive new heights if they are paying attention.

Omega3322
10-31-2006, 11:10 AM
I am interested to see how a 12 oz RD would do. I agree that the 8 oz will be shadowed and see a major drop in sales.

leisuredrummer
11-01-2006, 02:35 PM
RedBullFan, I saw it in a C-Store. They have now raised the price to @2.89. It was only at $2.39 for about 3 days.

The 12oz. Red Bull will compete with the Monster. Why? Becuase C-Store owners are making a much larger profit off of selling RB 12.oz than they are Monster, therefor, C-Store owners are going to be pushing the RB 12oz. much more than Monster. Monster will soon have no choice but to raise the price of their product so that C-Stores owners make more money or the C-Stores wont even want to carry it.

RB tested the market with the 16oz. If it didn't do well then they weren't going to greenlight the 12oz. for production. The only reason they did is because of the great response from the 16oz.

greg
11-01-2006, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by leisuredrummer:
RedBullFan, I saw it in a C-Store. They have now raised the price to @2.89. It was only at $2.39 for about 3 days.

The 12oz. Red Bull will compete with the Monster. Why? Becuase C-Store owners are making a much larger profit off of selling RB 12.oz than they are Monster, therefor, C-Store owners are going to be pushing the RB 12oz. much more than Monster. Monster will soon have no choice but to raise the price of their product so that C-Stores owners make more money or the C-Stores wont even want to carry it.

RB tested the market with the 16oz. If it didn't do well then they weren't going to greenlight the 12oz. for production. The only reason they did is because of the great response from the 16oz. I have NEVER been standing in front of the cold vault wondering what drink to buy and a C-Store owner gave me a recommendation.
Monster won't have to raise their prices to accomodate the C-store owner. The C-Store can do that on his own. If Monster raise its price then the C-Store owner will have a smaller margin!!

If the 16oz was sooo successful then where is it? Why is RB doing a 12oz??????

greg
11-01-2006, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by deepnenergy:
RB did bring energy to the US market and we must all say that they did a good job BUT (big but) RC did bring CSD to the market as well and look at them today. This 12oz is only a counter move from RB failing with their 16oz @ $3.79.

If RB don't want to keep loosing their market share maybe they should lower their price, but that won't happen and their larger ticket price on RB's 12 & 16 oz will be the best selling point for all the other premium 16oz beverages.

KEEP IT UP RED BULL Did Royal Cola really bring the CSD to the market????????? I missed that one!
.....other PREMIUM 16oz beverages. Which one's are those. Most if not all 16oz ED's are priced the same or closely to the 8.3oz RB. How does that make them premium? I thought premium meant "less for more" not "more for the same price or just a little more price"

RedBullFan
11-01-2006, 09:20 PM
greg, what I think he ment by saying C-store owners will push RB 12oz over 16oz is by the store owners giving multiple points of distribution, ie. more ice barrels, displays, and incremental facings in the coolers. (promoting the RB 12oz)

atleast that's what I think he was saying.

ALLPRO
11-01-2006, 09:45 PM
Both Monster and Rockstar Distributors are selling 24 pk for around 27.00 per case. Retailer is buying for $1.12 per can and retailing it for $2.49. That's a 55% margin! Retailers are never going to stop pushing the 16oz for Red Bull 12oz.
16oz is where the battle is, not 12oz.

leisuredrummer
11-01-2006, 10:13 PM
Yes Redbullfan, that is what I meant, I guess I should have clarified that, sorry.

Red Bull wanted to bring a size that was innovative to the the industry. The only reason they tested the 16oz. was to see if the consumer actually was interested in a bigger product from RB. The response was good and instead of jumping on the 16oz. bandwagon they decided to do something original.

RB has always been against the bigger size but the consumer asked for it and RB delivered. I am sure we will see other energy drinks bringing out 12oz. cans soon enough.

David J.
11-01-2006, 11:58 PM
For all of the other drinks... Why pay the same for less, or maybe... *gasp* more?

I love how you are Red Bull's right-hand man, and just obvious you're just beleive the stuff that they spoon feed to you right off the bat without researching it.

Where I live, people actually buy the stuff for the taste... over the energy _sometimes_, and crap their pants they don't get the best bang for their buck. 16oz drinks sell a lot faster and better in my area, than a weak product with a weaker size.

deepnenergy
11-02-2006, 01:51 PM
Hi Greg, thanks for the reply. Your right, why would a 16oz at the same price as RB be premium? Well, maybe they are not. Maybe all the supplements the energy companies add to their drinks over what RB has, is not real or just really cheap. Or maybe someone is taking advantage of a new market and other someones are making premium beverages but most the world is blinded by marketing and has not taking the time to turn the can over or try something new. It's funny that people care more about stuff that goes on the outside of their body then what goes in.

SumPoosieCat
11-02-2006, 03:43 PM
I hope RB continues to live in fairyland and charge more for their delicious product forever.

greg
11-02-2006, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by deepnenergy:
Hi Greg, thanks for the reply. Your right, why would a 16oz at the same price as RB be premium? Well, maybe they are not. Maybe all the supplements the energy companies add to their drinks over what RB has, is not real or just really cheap. Or maybe someone is taking advantage of a new market and other someones are making premium beverages but most the world is blinded by marketing and has not taking the time to turn the can over or try something new. It's funny that people care more about stuff that goes on the outside of their body then what goes in. Rockstar is just now rolling out drinks with ingredient content that is truly different from the slated "norm" in the ED category. Their drinks can truly be called "premium" in my view. As for the others: Sugar, Taurine, Niacin,B6 & 12, and carbonation are not ingredients that can
command the "premium" moniker.

Coco Rico
11-05-2006, 02:47 AM
Well, I guess we know how to fire up all the sellers of a 16oz ED... just dare insinuate their product isn't premium! Come on guys, the whole premise of a 16oz ED which is "twice as much for the same price as Red Bull" is a value proposition - always has been, always will be. That's the only way anyone caught up to Red Bull - it wasn't "premium" ingredients, and it wasn't taste. If it was, how come none of the hundreds of 8.3oz competitors with "better" ingredients and taste ever took off?

It's like saying, I can buy the 12pk of Bass Beer for $14.99 or a 24pk of Busch Light for about the same price... The only difference is, no one at Busch Light thinks they're a premium beer, they know all they offer is value at a lower price.

The 16oz EDs need to stop fooling themselves. The only reason there is so much chatter right now about the RB 12oz selling for $2.79 or $2.89, is that they're all a little freaked out. They know that Red Bull is the only brand with the premium image and popularity that could possibly justify that high a price for a 12oz. They're hoping right now that Red Bull flops, because if they don't - it will totally screw with their current pricing strategy and it will only reinforce their positions as cheaper value brands.

They know inevitably, retailers would raise the prices of their 16oz products to be more in line with the new 12oz pricing and they know that none of their brands have the strength or the image to sustain their current volume at a higher price point.

Now imagine this... If the RB 12oz is successful, and retailers begin raising the prices of all their 16oz EDs, the consumer will eventually accept the fact that 16oz EDs cost more due to their size. This is then when Red Bull releases their premium priced 16oz ED, and the consumer isn't as phased by their higher price point. Red Bull maintains the security of their 8.3oz pricing and becomes seen as the premium choice in the 16oz category. This effectively removes the value proposition for all the competing 16oz EDs, since all their pricing will now be significantly higher than RB's 8.3oz.

Then it will all come down to marketing... and as we all know, there is not a single ED brand that will ever match the $300+ million that Red Bull spends every year on marketing...

Of course this is all conjecture, but either way it will be fun to see how it plays out! Happy posting!

CR

Mr Zabe
11-05-2006, 03:53 AM
CR
BRAVO!!!!
Brilliant insight on the market conditions of the Red Bull/ED retail market. Just outstanding well thought out points.

SumPoosieCat
11-05-2006, 10:11 AM
Coco you crack me up! I am very happy that Red Bull charges a premium price for their product. Because they have kept their lofty price point it has given the rest of us a large field to play in. Taste matters... and as long as Red Bull doesn't understand that... I will always have a business. Believe me...it's nice that they charge more but to be honest... as long as the stuff taste the way it does there is room for players like me.

Red Sox fan
11-05-2006, 05:27 PM
CR- your whole proposition is based on the false assumption that Red Bull is still the ovewhemingly dominant player in the category.

This is just not the case anymore and as a result Red Bull does not have the clout to dictate pricing like you claim they do.

Fact-RB isn't even the #1 brand in convenience nationally anymore.

The strategy you lay out above may have worked if Red Bull had came out with a 12/16oz 2-3 years ago. But now it's too late and RB has already hemoraged too much market share. Monster and Rockstar have both established themselves and have developed strong national brands.

12oz RB will only have one effect. It will validify the 16oz category and make the players who have been in this package for 5-6 years now even stronger.

SumPoosieCat
11-05-2006, 06:50 PM
Well said Red Sox... Red Bull just doesn't get it. Three years ago they were the King of this category last year they were the Queen... It seems like the way things are heading they will soon be the Joker.

jdavidb
11-06-2006, 10:17 AM
You can call Red Bull "premium" all you want, but for THIS consumer, "premium energy drink" will always mean Amp.

Ron Swedelson
11-06-2006, 10:48 AM
TTB...joker...come on...still the King, just a different kingdom. I agree, RB should have done something 2-3 years ago. But how can you truley talk down on a brand that is selling over a billion cans a year...hardley something to mock. You know just about every brand would die to have 1/8th of Red Bulls sales. With that said, yes they are not keeping pace with the growing market, but that does not mean sales are dropping or they are loosing everyone. I would like to see Red Bull come out with some different flavors. But corp. would have to give in on that one, and I dont think they will. They stand by that their drink was not designed for taste, but for function. With that said, I do not believe taste will win you the market, but it will help you get the rest of the new marketplace that are drinking energy drinks because it is popular not because they need them.

leisuredrummer
11-06-2006, 07:09 PM
This is probably the reason why Red Bull's marketing is a dedicated class at Harvard. People don't understand the way that their marketing works but IT DOES. That's the bottom line. It's the most innovative marketing on Earth.

What brand have you ever heard of that took off to be #1 of their market without billboards, banners, extensive tv ads, etc? If anybody thinks that they don't know what they are doing bringing out the 12oz. then you are wrong. Red Bull still accounts for over 50% of ED sales every year the other 50% are broken up between the other ED's.

greg
11-06-2006, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by leisuredrummer:
This is probably the reason why Red Bull's marketing is a dedicated class at Harvard. People don't understand the way that their marketing works but IT DOES. That's the bottom line. It's the most innovative marketing on Earth.

What brand have you ever heard of that took off to be #1 of their market without billboards, banners, extensive tv ads, etc? If anybody thinks that they don't know what they are doing bringing out the 12oz. then you are wrong. Red Bull still accounts for over 50% of ED sales every year the other 50% are broken up between the other ED's. $100mm in capital as a start up US company is what helped propel RB into the forefront of the US Energy market. RB did not invent the ED, it perfected its marketing. RB had ample education from its European arm to know what to do once it hit the states.
With that being said, RB has to change with the times or the times will change RB. Just because it worked yesterday doean't mena it will work today. Look at Ford & GM. They failed to heed the warnings of potential higher gas prices and continued to develop cars and trucks based on truck chassis's. Now look at them.
I said it before and I will say again, or rather Bill Gates has said it: Innovate or die! That just doesn't go for product development but fopr marketing as well.

SumPoosieCat
11-06-2006, 08:39 PM
Monster and Rockstar have gone from nothing to #1 in various markets in the last year... the reason...Multiple flavors and offerings Red Bull comes back with a 16 ounce can that bombs then they try a 12 ounce. A 12 ounce can will not work because it reminds people they can get a Diet Coke for .50 cents.

ALLPRO
11-06-2006, 08:52 PM
I think the overall opinion on this topic concerning Red Bull's 12oz sku is, with being # 1 in the ED category and the best known brand in the ED Category...Is this the best they can do?
As a ED Distributor, I am impressed with what Red Bull has done both in marketing and distribution.
I would never count them out. But... they have not been very innovative in quite some time. They ignored the 16oz market for 6 years and let Rockstar and Monster skyrocket in growth.

Mr Zabe
11-06-2006, 10:49 PM
Allpro...Just a thought "Dumb like a fox".
Red Bull just might have the last laugh.LOL
A good poker player always has a good poker face.

Ok,my cliches are sappy...I think Red Bull will have a second "coming" and launch a multi flavored brand of it's flagship ED. This new multi flavored ED product will capture instant market share.

Just my opinion. (Yes I'm sober.LOL)

[ 11-06-2006, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: Mr Zabe ]

greg
11-06-2006, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by TallThinBlonde:
Monster and Rockstar have gone from nothing to #1 in various markets in the last year... the reason...Multiple flavors and offerings Red Bull comes back with a 16 ounce can that bombs then they try a 12 ounce. A 12 ounce can will not work because it reminds people they can get a Diet Coke for .50 cents. I don't think the average ED drinker thinks this way, otherwise wouldn't he/she think that way in the purchase of an 8oz RB?
I believe that ED drinkers look at an ED as a "functional drink" and a CSD as just a thirst quencher.
ED drinkers feel as though they are getting value from their purchase of ED's whether they are 8 oz, 12oz, or 16oz.

greg
11-06-2006, 11:29 PM
Someone correct me if I am wrong please because I may have my information skewed.
Didn't Hansens hire a bunch of Cadbury Shweppes, retired CCE guys or Pepsi guys to get Monster off the ground??????????

SumPoosieCat
11-06-2006, 11:45 PM
AllPro your right ! Mr Zabe... too late, Red Bull really let 2 brands take flight!

RedBullFan
11-07-2006, 12:23 AM
Mr Zabe, I think I know what your talking about! ;) TTB might just get her wish!

Ooylara
11-07-2006, 12:23 AM
RB 16oz did not fail in its Vegas testing. Did well, but Austria did not want to mimic the 16oz brands in the US and decided to go with the unique 12oz without even testing it. Fatal mistake? No. Expensive mistake? We might know soon.

leisuredrummer
11-07-2006, 02:27 AM
I think people fail to realize that RB owns the market WORLDWIDE not just America. You go to most other countries and they have no idea what Monster or Rockstar even is. RB won't be losing business anytime soon.

America is the only country where bigger is better. Other countries would despise a 16oz. energy drink and much more a 24 oz. energy drink. The bigger is better state of mind is a dying fad in America. RB is doing just enough to satisfy the consumer for now.

SumPoosieCat
11-07-2006, 07:40 AM
Gee ... Red Bull has finally figured out that they need another flavor or two.... wow they are really smart over there. :rolleyes:

SumPoosieCat
11-07-2006, 07:45 AM
Lol... you guys make me laugh. The could not GIVE away the 16 ounce can in Vegas and the 12 ounce will do no better. Let me talk slowly... its the ... TASTE... great brand... make another flavor... duh...

Mr Zabe
11-07-2006, 09:30 AM
***Warning the following is my warped over simplification analogy of Red Bulls unique market presence in the ED catagory.****

"It takes a Dog to make Dog Piss."
.....and not the other way around. LOL

Dog = Red Bull brand "premium" ED catagory innovator.

Dog Piss = ED flavors

[ 11-07-2006, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: Mr Zabe ]

CStoreCatMan
11-07-2006, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by leisuredrummer:
The response was good and instead of jumping on the 16oz. bandwagon they decided to do something original.

RB has always been against the bigger size but the consumer asked for it and RB delivered. I am sure we will see other energy drinks bringing out 12oz. cans soon enough. I will concede that Red Bull perhaps didn't want to follow every other company by bringing out a 16oz can. I can buy that as they were the market leader and may have wanted to differentiate themselves.

However, you're kidding yourself thinking the other companies will start moving to the 12oz can. Why would they do that? Because Red Bull did it? That would have been a valid argument had Red Bull been one of the first to move to a bigger can - that being a 12oz. But since they sat back with all of their eggs in the 8oz basket, they went from being the innovators of the segment to just a big player. Big difference. At this point in the game, the 16 and 24 oz cans ARE the category. The 16oz has the highest % of sales while 24oz cans are experiencing the highest % of sales growth. I can understand if the RED BULL CONSUMER wanted more...but IMO they will be trading an 8oz RB drinker up to the 12oz. They will not convert a 16oz or 24oz Monster customer with this 12oz package.

Coco Rico
11-07-2006, 03:09 PM
Well, I think the point is that if RB's 12oz becomes successful, the current establishment of 16oz EDs would be stuck. How would they be able to go from a 16oz package retailing around the same price as RB's 8.3oz to a 12oz without seriously compromising their pricing strategies?

That's what pretty interesting about the move to a 12oz. New 12oz brands would have to be created to compete with RB's 12oz should it become successful.

CR

BriGuy20
11-07-2006, 03:10 PM
I saw the new Red Bull on the way home from Georgia (Fredericksburg, maybe?).

It was intriguing, still a thin can with about the height of the 16oz drinks.

I didn't pick one up, though. It was more than the price of the 16 ounce brands, which, IMHO, taste much better.

CStoreCatMan
11-07-2006, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Coco Rico:
Well, I think the point is that if RB's 12oz becomes successful, the current establishment of 16oz EDs would be stuck. How would they be able to go from a 16oz package retailing around the same price as RB's 8.3oz to a 12oz without seriously compromising their pricing strategies?

That's what pretty interesting about the move to a 12oz. New 12oz brands would have to be created to compete with RB's 12oz should it become successful.

CR I disagree completely. Red Bull does not have the power to re-shape the entire pricing structure of the energy category.

Even if the 12oz can is marginally successful, do you think Monster is going to care enough to produce their own 12oz package? WHY? They have the #1 selling brand in the #1 package size. Not to mention, they also have the #1 brand in the #1 growth package size (24oz) which costs a fraction more than a new Red Bull that's HALF the size.

Just answer me this. If I'm a 22 year old guy who usually drinks a 16oz or 24oz e-drink at $2.29 and $2.99 respectively...WHY would I be persuaded to try a 12oz Red Bull that costs $2.79??? Its the same old Red Bull in the can, its 4 ounces less than what I usually get, AND IT COSTS MORE. Not to mention, I happen to think the drink I usually consume tastes better. What possible draw does this new package have for the energy consumer?

[ 11-07-2006, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: CStoreCatMan ]

Mr Zabe
11-07-2006, 07:55 PM
IMO
Your age group 16 to 25, tends to be a more value added demographic. Getting added value (size,cost and quality) are weighted heavier in what ED's are brought.

As this demographic ages and incomes increase, value added consuming declines. Take a look at a busy Starbucks coffee shop in any urban business setting. These consumers will gladly pay for their "up scale" coffee. Why because of the perceived value of the coffee and their ability to afford them.

Simply put as one's marginal income rises so does one's proprortioanl marginal ability to consume.
The more you have the better the goods you can consume(real or perceived).

[ 11-08-2006, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Mr Zabe ]

ALLPRO
11-07-2006, 08:06 PM
I said it before, Red Bull 12oz is not converting 16oz consumers, they are "cannibaliziing" their own customer base. The 12oz does not fit into the 8oz slots. When you see the 12oz next to Rockstar and Monster in the coolers..it looks like the 8oz can.

rackitup
11-07-2006, 09:53 PM
I talked 2 a Nice Red Bull Salesman/Driver today at an AM/PM in So.Cal., and he said that just today his Boss told him there R more 12oz. cans coming, more than the Red Bull, and Red Bull Diet that is.

I have been thinking about this 8oz. vs 12 oz. Red Bull thing a little on my own and I think that Red Bull is used 2 selling their Premim Product at their price.
When competitors came out with 16 oz. they were not worried.
Now Red Bull realizes there is the largest growth in the 24oz. size so the will simply move up 2 12oz. 2 again B 1/2 the size,(KISS)the consumer does not have 2 over analyze it they R still gettint a Premium product and as always it is 1/2 the size as the competition.
The cold vault in stores is pretty well represented by Red Bull now that they have 2 sizes, so I personally do not feel they have lost that much space 2 Monster and RockStar.

Blue Efficacy
11-08-2006, 06:44 AM
Originally posted by rackitup:
I talked 2 a Nice Red Bull Salesman/Driver today at an AM/PM in So.Cal., and he said that just today his Boss told him there R more 12oz. cans coming, more than the Red Bull, and Red Bull Diet that is.

I have been thinking about this 8oz. vs 12 oz. Red Bull thing a little on my own and I think that Red Bull is used 2 selling their Premim Product at their price.
When competitors came out with 16 oz. they were not worried.
Now Red Bull realizes there is the largest growth in the 24oz. size so the will simply move up 2 12oz. 2 again B 1/2 the size,(KISS)the consumer does not have 2 over analyze it they R still gettint a Premium product and as always it is 1/2 the size as the competition.
The cold vault in stores is pretty well represented by Red Bull now that they have 2 sizes, so I personally do not feel they have lost that much space 2 Monster and RockStar. Is it that much more difficult to say "to" versus "2"?

I'm not trying to be rude, but posting on a forum shouldnt be like writing a text messsage

SumPoosieCat
11-08-2006, 10:01 AM
Dear Red Bull... do you really think people want 12 or 16 ounces of your product at once? 8 ounces is hard enough to drink... I doubt anyone wants to HAVE to drink more.

I am sorry but all I have heard is how Red Bull has done this or that but few are willing to talk about how they have stood around for the last 2 years and let Monster and Rockstar take flight.

How do they answer ??? They answer with a 16 ounce can that sits because they want 4 bucks for it!!! Then they decide to try 12.... with all their money is it to hard to figure out they may be able to grow their brand if they make a few better tasting flavors???

rackitup
11-08-2006, 11:12 AM
[/qb][/QUOTE] Originally posted by Blue Efficacy Is it that much more difficult to say "to" versus "2"?

I'm not trying to be rude, but posting on a forum shouldnt be like writing a text messsage [/QB][/QUOTE]


I response 2 you're question,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
.

"Our patience for the childish behavior and trolls on this board is running out.
This is not a forum for harassing, mocking, or belittling other members of the forum.
We are isstituting a new zero-tolerance policy.
You break the rules, you get banned."


"Rule#2--Do not harass other members.
Personal attacks, insults, etc. etc. are not allowed.
This makes you look stupid/childish and you wil get banned."

[ 11-08-2006, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: rackitup ]

leisuredrummer
11-08-2006, 11:27 AM
TallThinBlonde, we get it...you don't like the taste.

RB is a functional beverage not a soda. You drink cough syrup when you are sick for the benefits, not the taste. Same thing goes for Red Bull, you drink the product for the benefits, not the tatse.

I don't understand why anybody would even want a bigger energy drink in the first place? Why take 2 asprin when you can take 1 aleve? Same way with enrgy drinks, why drink double the BS when you can drink half that and get the same effects? Lets face it, none of them taste amazing.

CStoreCatMan
11-08-2006, 03:01 PM
Well someone said it before...we live in America where bigger is better. WE don't have to understand why people want more...they just do. The sales of 16oz and 24oz e-drinks have shown that.

IMO, the problem with Red Bull's approach as a "premium" energy drink is this:

THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT CONSIDER RED BULL AS PREMIUM IS RED BULL!!

Why are they premium? Because they were the first energy drink in the mainstream market? So what! Many have improved on the effects and tastes of e-drinks since Red Bull's inception. If you surveyed 10,000 energy drinkers...would they agree that Red Bull is premium...and say Monster or RockStar is generic? I doubt it.

They can hang on to the perception of "we can charge more because we're Red Bull" but I think they will see very soon that the public could care less especially if it means paying a lot more for less product. They've lost SIGNIFICANT market share in the U.S. in 2005 and 2006. I'm curious to see what 2007 brings.

Coco Rico
11-08-2006, 05:08 PM
When people reference Red Bull as premium, there are two components they look at. One is the product itself, the quality of the ingredients, the benefits provided. These have been tried and true for the last 20 years. Their ingredients are pharmaceuctical grade, they use glucose and sucrose rather than HFCS, they innovated the use of Taurine in popular beverages, and they managed to come up with a flavor profile so unique that it has become it's own distinctive flavor. Good or bad, people know when they are drinking a Red Bull.

The second component is the image of the brand - their marketing. The fact that Red Bull does everything first class - from the design of their can, to their POS, to their events. Whether it's owning 2 Formula 1 teams and engaging that sport in a way that's breathing life into it, or entering Nascar not just as a sponsor but as a complete team owner - they do things in ways that don't just take away from a sport or scene, but that contribute and help build them.

Has anyone here ever been to a Red Bull event? Like their Air Race in San Francisco, or one of their Flugtags? How about their Soap Box race or their Fuel & Fury event (a freestyle snowmobile contest held at the old Pabst Blue Ribbon Brewery)That's how I became such a big fan. Over the years, my path kept crossing with theirs. I got to know people in the company and had the good fortune of being invited to many of their events. They roll out the red carpet to their customers and really create unique experiences no one else will. It's something you have to see to believe.

That's why I personally perceive Red Bull as a premium product. We tend to get tunnel vision on this site and we can't look beyond retail outlets, and shelf placements, and pricing, distribution channels, etc... But anybody can do that. Red Bull has become an icon in popular culture. Can any other ED brand claim that?... No, they can't.

Turn on the TV on any given night and they're bound to be drinking Red Bull, or talking about it, or reporting on it. It's what the celebs drink, the trend setters.

So yeah, Red Bull may have lost some share in some markets in some channels of business, but their overall volume still blows away any competitor and it is still growing from year to year.

It will always crack me up how a company that is on pace to sell close to 2 billion cans of their product in the US alone this year, is being declared a has been by many on this board.

CR

Ron Swedelson
11-08-2006, 05:18 PM
100Million in captiol startup does help greg, but it still has to be a great quality brand and take off with the customer. That is why Red Bull launched in the US in Santa Cruz, CA and Lake Tahoe, CA. Some nitch markets to make sure the people who need energy (skiers, boarders, surfers, etc.) would take to the brand. All I can say is Virgin Cola...lot of money, adds everywere, but people didnt care...takes more than just money to get a brand to take off and revelutionize a market.
TTB...I got to ask you why you talk so down on Red Bulls 12 oz can? If its just because you don't like the taste...well ok. But you keep saying how nobody wants a 12 oz ED...but didnt you go on for ever on how Think Pink was comming out in a 12 oz can? It was the best thing because 16 is too much for anyone to drink, and 8oz is too small?
You are not off point in saying Red Bull is reacting to the market to slowly and changing their size and possibly flavors a couple years too late. But, when you say their 16 oz was a falure, and think their 12 oz will be also? Let me ask you, falure compared to what? Falure that the 12 oz won't sell as many as many units as the original size. True. Falure that it won't sell as many as Rockstar or Monster? True. But, will it probably sell enough to make just about every company outside of Red Bull, Rock Star and Monster jellous. Probably. I can guarantee that most companies would love to have their 12 oz. sales. So just as Rockstar Guava is being viewed as a line extention to keep their brand sales going up, the same should be thought of for Red Bull.

CStoreCatMan
11-08-2006, 05:43 PM
We can go round and round on here. IMO, the bottom line is this: the 12oz can WILL sell. It will not sell as well as the 8oz (unless through cannabilization) and will not make much of an impact on Monster's 16oz and 24oz sales (or the other big brands of same package sizes).

Personally, I think the price point is a little high given the e-drink market is 5-6 years old and the prices of 16oz and 24oz drinks are pretty much established at $2-$3. The whole market is not going to change due to this one new item.

Had they been the first to go to a bigger package and/or brought out the 12oz before other 16oz brands...it would have been a homerun. This one will be a base hit...a double at best. I think its a very interesting move and only time will tell what comes of it.

Mr Zabe
11-08-2006, 06:39 PM
Excellent point from both sides of this Red Bull plebiscite. smile.gif

My two cents. Do you guys(gals too) recall that Hulk Hogan became a spokesman for a new ED? And that for several episodes he and his family were filmed drinking this ED on their show.

The second season of the Hulk Hogan show started a few weeks ago. Guess what, the whole family is back to drinking Red Bull. Hulk and his wife drink it like spring water.

IMO...Red Bull is the bench mark ED that is sort of like how us soda pop freaks crave sugar cane and glass. We will drink out of plastic bottles and cans but given a choice....sugar cane and glass are like catnip to a cat. And so goes Red Bull to it's captive audience.

ALLPRO
11-08-2006, 09:01 PM
Here are some "real" numbers from a printout I received today from a 7-11 store that I service:
Week 0f 10/18
8oz Red Bull 141 units
12oz Red Bull 0 (Not in store yet)
Week of 10/25
8oz Red Bull 98
12oz Red Bull 26
Week of 11/01
8oz Red Bull 67
12oz Red Bull 51
Rockstar stayed around 60 units per week +/- 4 cans
So far, it looks like Red Bull 12oz is cannibalizing their 8oz.
By the way, Red Line is the 4 best seller in same category at this store. ($3.99 Retail...awesome!)
Red Line is averaging 45 units per week!!!
Yes, I know it's only one store...but it's a good one!

leisuredrummer
11-08-2006, 10:35 PM
Coco Rico, you have the best replies ever. At least someone here has some knowledge about Red Bull.

There are countless reasons as to why Red Bull is a premium energy drink. How about each ingredient is synthetically produced with the purest materials. Each can is Kosher, Halal, and vegan friendly? Or the fact that quality control is a priority to Red Bull by having only one factory that produces Red Bull? I

leisuredrummer
11-08-2006, 10:43 PM
Coco Rico, you have the best replies ever. At least someone here has some knowledge about Red Bull.

There are countless reasons as to why Red Bull is a premium energy drink. How about each ingredient is synthetically produced with the purest materials. Each can is Kosher, Halal, and vegan friendly? Or the fact that quality control is a priority to Red Bull by having only one factory that produces Red Bull? I don't think any other ED's can say that.

Red Bull is recognized worldwide as the first and leading energy drink on the market. The only place Monster, Rockstar, etc is popular is in the United States. Other countries don't fall for the bigger is better campaign.

The price of Red Bull has always been steady only to increase with inflation over the years. So when the other ED's started to came along, was it really Red Bull being more expensive or the other ED's being cheap? Red Bull had set the price of an 8.3oz can of energy, the others came out and cheapened themselves to even start to compete. Not only did they price lower than Red Bull but they had to give twice the amount.

So if that isn't premium then I don't know what is.

Coco Rico
11-09-2006, 09:15 AM
Leisuredrummer,

Thanks for the kind words. I agree with you about RB's price over the years too. In the last 9 years that they've been in the US, their pricing has remained the same. I think that's pretty amazing, and I definitely think they could get away with raising it gradually without the consumer even blinking.

Allpro,

What was the price of the 12oz RB at the store you ran the numbers at? The cannibalization is to be expected, but here's what I find interesing. Based on the pricing of the 12oz, even though that retailer sold less total units of Red Bull after 12oz was introduced, he is making a higher profit off Red Bull than before because of the higher price point of the 12oz.

CR

SumPoosieCat
11-09-2006, 09:32 AM
I am not here to argue about what Red Bull has done... believe me my company does very well because of what Red Bull has done in the USA over the last 10 years.

But, is it just me or does Red Bull seem to be clueless lately? A 16 ounce can for 4 bucks??? A 12 ounce can that looks like the 8 ??? STIll no new flavors!!! Monster and Rockstar taking off... seems like they are playing catch up instead of innovating.

CStoreCatMan
11-09-2006, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by Coco Rico:
When people reference Red Bull as premium, there are two components they look at. One is the product itself, the quality of the ingredients, the benefits provided. These have been tried and true for the last 20 years. Their ingredients are pharmaceuctical grade, they use glucose and sucrose rather than HFCS, they innovated the use of Taurine in popular beverages
CR Here's the thing with this. YOU know this information as do some of the other board members. Therefore, because of your knowledge, you DO view Red Bull as premium. However, do you think the majority of 18-25 year old energy drinkers are aware of these things? No. Therefore, to my earlier point, what appeal does the new 12oz Red Bull have to the "average" energy drinker that has no clue about the pharmaceutical ingredients, sucrose, etc. etc.? To them, its a bigger can of Red Bull at a much bigger price - especially when compared to the competition.

greg
11-09-2006, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by leisuredrummer:
Coco Rico, you have the best replies ever. At least someone here has some knowledge about Red Bull.

There are countless reasons as to why Red Bull is a premium energy drink. How about each ingredient is synthetically produced with the purest materials. Each can is Kosher, Halal, and vegan friendly? Or the fact that quality control is a priority to Red Bull by having only one factory that produces Red Bull? I OK Sodium-Premium Ingredient? Niacin-Premium Ingredient? Aspartame- Premium Ingredient, Phenylalanine-Premium Ingredient, Inositol-Premium Ingredient?

Stop fooling yourself- RB has a very basic ingredient profile. All they did was create "PREMIUM MARKERTING". They didn't the ED category they made it better.
This post about hatting RB, If it wasn't for them I may not have a job. I just don't think you can honestly say that RB has premium ingredients in it over what the other guys put in their drinks.

Mr Zabe
11-09-2006, 12:48 PM
Here it comes....one of my oversimplified analogies. LOL I used to say this on another board.

"Good sex is 90% mental... and... 10% physical".

Mental = marketing.......Physical = ingredients

Draw your own conclusions. smile.gif

[ 11-09-2006, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Mr Zabe ]

Ron Swedelson
11-09-2006, 04:29 PM
All the companies are waiting for Red Bulls patent on Taurine to expire so they can hopefuly use their pharmacutical grade ingrediant and stop using Animal Taurine. They have a good level of Glucoronalactores which most dont have. Other ingrediants are the same everywere. But Red Bull is premium, there is no way of getting around that. They have not bastardised themselfs, They keep up an incredible image and presence. Their events all express this in an amazing way. That does not mean that Rock Star and Monster are not premium brands. But it does mean most of the other drinks are. The 2 for 1's, the unreliability of finding it in stores or whole states, the constant change in price and store location helps to back that up.
The benifit in the 12 will not be huge, but it is added. The new customers, who grew up with their brothers drinking Red Bull, or went to a Red Bull event, will want the 12 oz, why, because it is bigger. I would buy the 12 oz. But they are loosing my 8oz purchase now. This also may be a better seller in the chain stores for warm shelf, single sells. Anyone who thinks this will jump Red Bull back into a dominant first, well, they are mistaken. But, this is also not a step backwards.

Mr Zabe
11-09-2006, 04:48 PM
Ron,
Great post.

ALLPRO
11-09-2006, 08:10 PM
They only people who care about premium ingredients that are in Red Bull work for Red Bull or distribute it.
Red Bull is the strongest brand in the Beverage Market, nobody can really argue against that. But, they should have not let Monster and Rockstar run rampid for the last 5 years.
(That doesn't include regional brands that are also taking sales away from Red Bull.)
How long will Red Bull continue to igonore the 16oz Market?

Red Sox fan
11-09-2006, 08:50 PM
"So yeah, Red Bull may have lost some share in some markets in some channels of business, but their overall volume still blows away any competitor and it is still growing from year to year"-Coco Rico

MAY have lost SOME share, in SOME markets, in SOME channels?? Well CR, you certainly have a way of putting things..

How about REd Bull lost 30-40 market share points, NATIONALLY, in the single biggest channel (CONVENIENCE)for Energy Drinks over just 2 years time.

On second thought, sounds much better the way you said it....

Coco Rico
11-10-2006, 12:12 AM
The reason I said some markets and some channels is two fold:

1) Red Bull hasn't lost share equally in every market. Sure, in some markets, Red Bull has gotten beaten fairly significantly. In others Red Bull is the dominant player by far. Also, it should be noted that even where Red Bull has lost significant share, their sales growth has not diminished. This is attributed to the fact that more and more soda drinkers are being turned on to 16oz EDs as an alternative for their soda. The energy "pie" so to speak has gotten a lot bigger with new consumers.

2) No one ever talks about anything other than Grocery and C-Store - because in reality, those are basically the only 2 channels where everyone competes. No one ever likes to talk about the other channels where Red Bull hasn't taken a hit in share - Mass Merch, Vending, Military, Drug and the big pink elephant in the room: On-premise.

Let's look at On-premise. Red Bull absolutely dominates this channel. I don't think anyone can dispute the fact that Monster, Rockstar, Full Throttle, et all are all severely deficient in on-premise. Red Bull is sold in something like 50,000 on-premise accounts across the country - the vast majority of which are exclusive with Red Bull. In many markets, Red Bull generates anywhere from 25%-35% of their total volume from On-premise - almost on par with the C-store channel. This category continues to grow tremendously for Red Bull as they have pretty much remained the only brand called for by name.

Again, no one likes to mention this side of the business because unlike c-stores - where a cheaper product without a strong brand but with a lower price can deter a consumer from purchasing a higher priced premium brand, On-premise is all about image and all about cultural cache and Red Bull has it in spades...

CR

SumPoosieCat
11-10-2006, 08:32 AM
Few talk about it Coco because on premise use to be a very small part of Red Bull's overall business. I can believe its becoming a bigger part everyday. The way things are going for them out in the field they need to brag about something. I believe the people they are PAYING to stay exclusive on premise still are.

CStoreCatMan
11-10-2006, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by ALLPRO:
They only people who care about premium ingredients that are in Red Bull work for Red Bull or distribute it.
That was my point. The AVERAGE energy consumer does not know their ingredients are premium, nor do they care. At this stage in the game its about getting bang for the buck. And the Red Bull 12oz does not provide that compared to the other offerings in the category.

CStoreCatMan
11-10-2006, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Coco Rico:

1) Also, it should be noted that even where Red Bull has lost significant share, their sales growth has not diminished.
CR I'm going to quote some hard numbers from AC Nielsen - Southern California Market (YTD through 10/7/06).

Red Bull 8.3oz - % Vol Change vs. YAG = -9.0%
% $$$ Change vs. YAG = -6.7%

Red Bull 4pk - % Vol Change vs. YAG = -12.2%
% $$$ Change vs. YAG = -11.5%

In addition, my data shows that (in this market) they have sold 49,000 LESS CASES than last year which results in a loss of 8 share points. This is not growth...

In fact, to take it even further...when you count ALL sizes of energy, Red Bull holds a 19.7 market share in SoCal. That's dead even with RockStar. Monster is a whopping 42.6% of the category here!!!

We all know Red Bull owns the 8oz category...but YTD 8oz sales only make up 22% of total energy sales and that size is down nearly 11% in sales. And logic tells us if Red bull OWNS the 8oz category...and the whole 8oz category is down...who's losing? Red Bull.

[ 11-10-2006, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: CStoreCatMan ]

SumPoosieCat
11-14-2006, 11:27 AM
Stop it Cstoreman !!! It's not fair ... your using facts and stuff. Coco must be right Red Bull must be growing and must be the dominate player.

Sorry... sounds silly doesn't it. We all know Red Bull is getting their ***** kicked and have been. The reason is simple... they just don't get it. They all believe its not about taste but the facts are it is. Its not hard to make a better energy drink then Red Bull. Granted Red Bull is a marketing machine but their weakness is their product is just not very good. Monster and Rockstar have been able to grow and dominate Red Bull in numerous markets because of taste, value, and variety.

Taste...Value...Variety... the 12oz. can of Red Bull does not address any of those 3... until they do they will continue to lose market share.

greg
11-14-2006, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by TallThinBlonde:
Stop it Cstoreman !!! It's not fair ... your using facts and stuff. Coco must be right Red Bull must be growing and must be the dominate player.

. LOL, Funny Stuff!

jdavidb
11-14-2006, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by TallThinBlonde:
Granted Red Bull is a marketing machine but their weakness is their product is just not very good. Monster and Rockstar have been able to grow and dominate Red Bull in numerous markets because of taste, value, and variety.See, statements like that make me even less likely to try Red Bull. I've never had Red Bull, but I have had Monster, and if Monster beats Red Bull on taste -- ugh! I only bought Monster because it was a big can, and now I don't need to do that any more because Amp comes in big cans, and because Vault exists.

fusion
04-18-2007, 12:44 AM
Saw tags for 4pks of the 12oz cans today.

DudeMan
04-22-2007, 06:25 AM
I have heard that Red Bull is coming back with a 16oz, nationwide. Could be wrong..