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NEED-ENERGY
09-03-2007, 12:26 PM
Ok; so there are hundreds of names on cans claiming to be an energy drink.
But, what constitutes an energy drink?

Do you consider caffeine and some B vitamins to be an energy drink?
Is red-bull a true energy drink?

How about a drink with lots of nutrients? How about orange juice?
Is V8 an energy drink?

Post your replies as to what do you think a TRUE energy drink should be and what effects it should have?

Mr Zabe
09-03-2007, 12:46 PM
IMHO
Beyond the elements of ingrediants,marketing and market demand.
ED's are more than the sum of their parts and are based on the principle
of mind over mater.

IMO....ED's are 90% marketing and 10% ingredient formula.

NRGSLLR@
09-04-2007, 11:10 AM
IMHO
Beyond the elements of ingrediants,marketing and market demand.
ED's are more than the sum of their parts and are based on the principle
of mind over mater.

IMO....ED's are 90% marketing and 10% ingredient formula.

I think it is like beauty, truly in the eye of the beholder. However, those who are exercise enthusiasts would have a totally different opion of what energy drinks are vs. what your averages teenager might feel an energy drink are. I think both are trying to capture the same target demographic but one segment misses another hits it right on the mark.

The true measure of an energy drink is the image it protrays of it's user. Is it cool. Is it an enhancement to my activity, whether that is skateboarding, powerlifiting or partying, it doesn't matter.

NRGSLLR@
09-04-2007, 11:11 AM
I think it is like beauty, truly in the eye of the beholder. However, those who are exercise enthusiasts would have a totally different opion of what energy drinks are vs. what your averages teenager might feel an energy drink are. I think both are trying to capture the same target demographic but one segment misses another hits it right on the mark.

The true measure of an energy drink is the image it protrays of it's user. Is it cool. Is it an enhancement to my activity, whether that is skateboarding, powerlifiting or partying, it doesn't matter.

Sorry about the spelling, grammar. Opinion etc.

deepnenergy
09-05-2007, 03:42 PM
Taste, Package, color...again I say should only complement the Beverage. One thing I have always noticed is that every RB ad;

Always a cartoon & distorted artwork
Never do they focus on the Can or its looks (that is American thinking)

And it's always about the wings (or energy) just incase there is anyone that don't understand why RB became #1...


RB was not the first they just came on stronger and for the right reason for the times. But...as everyone knows times change....

illusionh20
09-05-2007, 11:33 PM
Does the American Beverage Association define what is an energy drink?

BriGuy20
09-06-2007, 01:14 AM
If it has 65+ mg caffeine in 8oz or 130+ mg in 16 ounce, I consider it an energy drink.

Anything less and I don't.

NEED-ENERGY
09-06-2007, 12:28 PM
If it has 65+ mg caffeine in 8oz or 130+ mg in 16 ounce, I consider it an energy drink.

Anything less and I don't.


You consider caffeine a source of energy?
Are people that ignorant?

greg
09-06-2007, 12:52 PM
You consider caffeine a source of energy?
Are people that ignorant?

Please explain yourself?

Caffeine is not a true source of energy but it is a cataylst for energy by reacting on certain receptors on the cellular level as well as in the brain. In the brain caffeine acts like a "blocker" of adenosine. The brain and pituitary gland react to "increased neuron firing" by dilating pupils, opening air passages, increased heart rate, vasoconstriction, etc. This is how the energy is created.
Now if you want to argue that carbohydrates are the only true source of energy that is debatable. Carbs alone do not create any energy unless work is invloved. Carbs can be stored as energy to be used later, but until it is used it is not energy.

I guess Starbucks, RB, Monster, et al have been pulling a fast one on us all these years and we didn't even realize it.

NEED-ENERGY
09-06-2007, 01:43 PM
Please explain yourself?

Caffeine is not a true source of energy but it is a cataylst for energy by reacting on certain receptors on the cellular level as well as in the brain. In the brain caffeine acts like a "blocker" of adenosine. The brain and pituitary gland react to "increased neuron firing" by dilating pupils, opening air passages, increased heart rate, vasoconstriction, etc. This is how the energy is created.
Now if you want to argue that carbohydrates are the only true source of energy that is debatable. Carbs alone do not create any energy unless work is invloved. Carbs can be stored as energy to be used later, but until it is used it is not energy.

I guess Starbucks, RB, Monster, et al have been pulling a fast one on us all these years and we didn't even realize it.


Boy, seems like i struck a nerve, that apparently works like Caffeine.
Sure caffeine is known to block adenosine, but this is "pretend" energy. Nothing more than a stimulant.
A slap in the face could also lead to the same effect, but when anger and heavy breathing wears off, you realize that you were stimulated, not given Energy.

Did you know that excess caffeine could lead to spontaneous abortion in pregnant women.
Stressed out with being pregnant? go to starbucks and order a double lathe, that will give you Energy. :D

greg
09-06-2007, 02:08 PM
Boy, seems like i struck a nerve, that apparently works like Caffeine.
Sure caffeine is known to block adenosine, but this is "pretend" energy. Nothing more than a stimulant.
A slap in the face could also lead to the same effect, but when anger and heavy breathing wears off, you realize that you were stimulated, not given Energy.

Did you know that excess caffeine could lead to spontaneous abortion in pregnant women.
Stressed out with being pregnant? go to starbucks and order a double lathe, that will give you Energy. :D


How did your definition, or lack therof, turn into a tutorial on spontaneous abortion?

How is a chemical/compound that affects the CNS and brain considered "pretend" energy? Does it not give you energy whenever the above mentioned actions take place in the body? Is that not real energy?

So what is real energy? and please dont say e=mc2. I am talking about energy derived by energy drinks.

deepnenergy
09-06-2007, 04:37 PM
That is right a catalyst...good word Greg.

It's about the blend of all the ingredients together, the problem is most use too much of this and not enough of that; "IMO" itís almost like some want their consumers to crash for repeat sales.


So Greg where you been, I missed u? I had seen your Red Line in the pharmacy at Wal-Mart...good to see your doing well.

NEED-ENERGY
09-06-2007, 06:59 PM
How did your definition, or lack therof, turn into a tutorial on spontaneous abortion?

How is a chemical/compound that affects the CNS and brain considered "pretend" energy? Does it not give you energy whenever the above mentioned actions take place in the body? Is that not real energy?

So what is real energy? and please dont say e=mc2. I am talking about energy derived by energy drinks.

""So what is real energy?""

Now, that is $64,000 question, and subject of this thread.:rolleyes:

Mr Zabe
09-06-2007, 08:48 PM
........and how can it be measured in way that a non scientist can
understand it.

I still say mind over matter (the good old placebo effect). LOL

deepnenergy
09-07-2007, 04:23 AM
........and how can it be measured in way that a non scientist can
understand it.

I still say mind over matter (the good old placebo effect). LOL

Most ingredients are studied outside of the FDA in other countries, you can learn a lot through research of these studies.

Just follow the link and type in your ingredients, a lot of bits info but it can give you a good start.


Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/)

greg
09-07-2007, 04:39 PM
""So what is real energy?""

Now, that is $64,000 question, and subject of this thread.:rolleyes:

The subject is "What is an Energy drink" Not "what is energy".

For any energy to "be" there must be a catalyst. i.e. smashing atoms, the Big bang theory, force vs resistance, etc. Caffeine is a catalyst that promotes energy.
You said: "You consider caffeine a source of energy?
Are people that ignorant?"But you still haven't defined where the energy is derived from.
It has to come from somewhere and I believe that a stimulant is the precursor to any energy that is made in the body. It just doesn't happen by the coincidence of drinking an energy drink. There has to be some stimulas involved that came from the drink. i.e. caffeine, b vitamins, taurine, yohimbine, et al.

greg
09-07-2007, 04:41 PM
That is right a catalyst...good word Greg.
So Greg where you been, I missed u? I had seen your Red Line in the pharmacy at Wal-Mart...good to see your doing well.

2,989 Wal-Marts to be exact. It has been a very busy Summer. Racked up quite a few FF miles and some Marriot rewards points. I was only home 2 days in July.

NRGSLLR@
09-07-2007, 05:25 PM
2,989 Wal-Marts to be exact. It has been a very busy Summer. Racked up quite a few FF miles and some Marriot rewards points. I was only home 2 days in July.

Greg are you still trying to go DSD?

deepnenergy
09-07-2007, 05:35 PM
Nice job, good for you!

1 IT is not an Energy Drink....Drink is what you do with it. It is a beverage.
2 I would say that both statments propose the same question since to be "an energy beverage" they both must coincide.
3 there are a number of beverages that claim energy but don't let u know what is in it, so in that case one would ask "what is energy" so that one may define what is an "energy beverage".

deepnenergy
09-07-2007, 09:34 PM
How did your definition, or lack therof, turn into a tutorial on spontaneous abortion?

How is a chemical/compound that affects the CNS and brain considered "pretend" energy? Does it not give you energy whenever the above mentioned actions take place in the body? Is that not real energy?

So what is real energy? and please dont say e=mc2. I am talking about energy derived by energy drinks.

NEED-ENERGY was just quoting off your own statment and said it was a 64,000 $ question.... "So what is real energy?" now say your sorry to the kid...

greg
09-10-2007, 04:54 PM
Greg are you still trying to go DSD?

Doing it every day!

greg
09-10-2007, 05:03 PM
NEED-ENERGY was just quoting off your own statment and said it was a 64,000 $ question.... "So what is real energy?" now say your sorry to the kid...

If hes a kid I wil stop arguing with him.

NEED-ENERGY
09-10-2007, 06:30 PM
If hes a kid I wil stop arguing with him.


Hardly a kid. And this is not an argument, but a legitimate discussion about what constitutes an energy drink.
If caffeine is a source of energy, then Coke is the first energy drink. So caffeine is nothing new on the table.

The question here was what is "True Energy"?
If your opinion is that caffeine is the source of True Energy, then be it.:cool:

greg
09-11-2007, 12:46 PM
Hardly a kid. And this is not an argument, but a legitimate discussion about what constitutes an energy drink.
If caffeine is a source of energy, then Coke is the first energy drink. So caffeine is nothing new on the table.

The question here was what is "True Energy"?
If your opinion is that caffeine is the source of True Energy, then be it.:cool:

Caffeine is not the only source of energy. However, many drinks out there use caffeine as one of its major precursors for energy, along with sugar and taurine of course.
Energy can be derived from many sources. Sources as of yet to be implemented by most , if not all , of the mainstream beverages. The Energy Drink category is in its infancy and it is just now starting to be recognized as a stand alone category. Just look at the data facts when they come out.

deepnenergy
09-12-2007, 12:15 PM
Hardly a kid. And this is not an argument, but a legitimate discussion about what constitutes an energy drink.
If caffeine is a source of energy, then Coke is the first energy drink. So caffeine is nothing new on the table.

The question here was what is "True Energy"?
If your opinion is that caffeine is the source of True Energy, then be it.:cool:

Sorry NEED...when I said kid I really meant the new guy. The question here was what is "True Energy"? A true energy beverage is one that is created to do just that "give energy”, nothing more. Weight control beverages are what they are, cola is just that, sport beverages are sport beverages, coffee and Tea is what they are. Can you add energy supplements to whatever, yes but that does not change what they are or started out to be. Unfortunately any mo-jo can say they are an energy brand but I would hope that consumers would know the difference, that’s why we at Rage do what we do, to show the consumer what they are spending their hard earned money on. With-out going into big debate the fact is that until the government or some appointed committee lay down the specs this will never change.




Greg....quick question???? Why is Redline different most everywhere / if not everywhere outside the USA?

Mr Zabe
09-12-2007, 12:26 PM
Oh Boy....like I have been saying;
it's more mind over matter than "energy" ingredients.
I still would like to know how energy is measured in a
human as effected by an energy drink.:)

greg
09-12-2007, 12:29 PM
Sorry NEED...when I said kid I really meant the new guy. The question here was what is "True Energy"? A true energy beverage is one that is created to do just that "give energyĒ, nothing more. Weight control beverages are what they are, cola is just that, sport beverages are sport beverages, coffee and Tea is what they are. Can you add energy supplements to whatever, yes but that does not change what they are or started out to be. Unfortunately any mo-jo can say they are an energy brand but I would hope that consumers would know the difference, thatís why we at Rage do what we do, to show the consumer what they are spending their hard earned money on. With-out going into big debate the fact is that until the government or some appointed committee lay down the specs this will never change.





Greg....quick question???? Why is Redline different most everywhere / if not everywhere outside the USA?

First off..Keep the Us Government out of my business.

REDLINE has an International version that does not contain Yohimbine. It is sold in Australia, Europe, Parts of the Middle Eastand the East. (Currently only S. Korea)

deepnenergy
09-12-2007, 05:20 PM
First off..Keep the Us Government out of my business.

REDLINE has an International version that does not contain Yohimbine. It is sold in Australia, Europe, Parts of the Middle Eastand the East. (Currently only S. Korea)

what about Canada? and why does the other countries not allow Yohimbine? touchy about the Government, why?

greg
09-13-2007, 05:37 PM
what about Canada? and why does the other countries not allow Yohimbine? touchy about the Government, why?

Read the Constitution and you will realize that all rights that are not expressed by the document are automatically given to the states. Congress has trampled all over this part of the Contstitution. Congress feels that it is government that makes this country great when in fact it is the people in spite of the government.

Yes, I forgot our friends to the North. The international version was first developed for Canada and marketed by Upper 49th. We had specials cans made up in English and French for Canada.

The Yohimbine question is a great one. In mexico Yohimbine is illegal, yet you can go into any drugstore and buy Anabolic Steroids OTC. Go Figure that one out.

deepnenergy
09-18-2007, 03:11 PM
Read the Constitution and you will realize that all rights that are not expressed by the document are automatically given to the states. Congress has trampled all over this part of the Contstitution. Congress feels that it is government that makes this country great when in fact it is the people in spite of the government.

Yes, I forgot our friends to the North. The international version was first developed for Canada and marketed by Upper 49th. We had specials cans made up in English and French for Canada.

The Yohimbine question is a great one. In mexico Yohimbine is illegal, yet you can go into any drugstore and buy Anabolic Steroids OTC. Go Figure that one out.

In Mexico Yohimbine is illegal??? Is it not illegal in most others countries as well? why?

greg
09-19-2007, 11:26 AM
In Mexico Yohimbine is illegal??? Is it not illegal in most others countries as well? why?

It is illegal in a lot of countries, Why? I do not know. There are a lot of substances that are illegal in the States that are illegal elsewhere and vice-a-versa.
Could be cultural, religious, tradition, etc.

deepnenergy
09-20-2007, 01:08 PM
It is illegal in a lot of countries, Why? I do not know. There are a lot of substances that are illegal in the States that are illegal elsewhere and vice-a-versa.
Could be cultural, religious, tradition, etc.

I found this...


Yohimbine is a selective competitive alpha2-adrenergic receptor antagonist that is sometimes used as an alternative treatment for erectile dysfunction.[2] The alpha2 receptor is responsible for sensing adrenaline and noradrenaline and telling the body to decrease its production as part of a negative feedback loop. Yohimbine supposedly acts as antagonist, or a blocker, by binding to alpha2 receptors but not activating them. This in turn increases adrenal gland production of adrenaline and noradrenaline. Yohimbine also antagonizes several serotonin receptor subtypes: 1A (inhibitory, behaivoral control), 1B (inhibitory, vasoconstriction), 1D (inhibitory, vasoconstriction), and 2B (smooth muscle contraction). Since yohimbine is an antagonist, it will decrease the effects of these receptors, thus causing excitation, vasodilation, and smooth muscle relaxation. Yohimbine is also said to increase dopamine and have some actions as an MAOI, although these mechanisms are unknown.

Higher doses of oral yohimbine may create numerous side effects such as rapid heart rate, high blood pressure, and overstimulation. Yohimbine might produce anxiety, and is thought to cause insomnia and sleeplessness in some users.

greg
09-20-2007, 04:04 PM
Other than the last paragraph can you tell me what that excerpt said and how Yohimbine reacts on the central nervous system?

Yohimbine is like any other compound, natural or synthetic, that if used as directed is a safe product, in my opinion.
I do not know where this information came from but it is like many statements by medical journals, the FDA, or a group that opposes use of certain compounds. It used words and phrases like "sometimes, may cause, also said to, may create, might produce, etc".

A lot of the "rules" if you will came from CODEX. CODEX is, in their mind, the international agency responsible for telling people what they can and can not ingest into their bodies. It is highly political as well as bureaurocratic and market(read BIG PHARMA) driven.
Codex started out in the EU and soon many countries around the World adopted their mantras in order to "toe the line". However, the United States, being one of the last truly free nations(and that can be questioned) would not walk the the thin line of trampling over its citizens right to choose, but since have acquiesed on some "regulations"
This same organization wanted to push through a referendum that would make the availablity of Vitamins to be by prescription only!!!!!
That is a better definition of why some substances are legal in the States and not elsewhere.

deepnenergy
09-21-2007, 03:04 AM
Other than the last paragraph can you tell me what that excerpt said and how Yohimbine reacts on the central nervous system?

Yohimbine is like any other compound, natural or synthetic, that if used as directed is a safe product, in my opinion.
I do not know where this information came from but it is like many statements by medical journals, the FDA, or a group that opposes use of certain compounds. It used words and phrases like "sometimes, may cause, also said to, may create, might produce, etc".

A lot of the "rules" if you will came from CODEX. CODEX is, in their mind, the international agency responsible for telling people what they can and can not ingest into their bodies. It is highly political as well as bureaurocratic and market(read BIG PHARMA) driven.
Codex started out in the EU and soon many countries around the World adopted their mantras in order to "toe the line". However, the United States, being one of the last truly free nations(and that can be questioned) would not walk the the thin line of trampling over its citizens right to choose, but since have acquiesed on some "regulations"
This same organization wanted to push through a referendum that would make the availablity of Vitamins to be by prescription only!!!!!
That is a better definition of why some substances are legal in the States and not elsewhere.

What? "Yohimbine is like any other compound, natural or synthetic, that if used as directed is a safe product, in my opinion". What? since when is Yohimbine like any other compound?




You should be a lobbyist, LOL...in my opinion.


The Rest...

Some internet shops sell expensive formulations of yohimbine for transdermal delivery to effect a local reduction of adipose tissue, although there is no evidence that it is effective. Demand for products of this kind is frequently found in the bodybuilding community.

Yohimbine chloride -- a standardized form of yohimbine-- is a prescription medicine that has been used to treat erectile dysfunction. [3] Controlled studies suggest that it is not always an effective treatment for impotence, and evidence of increased sex drive (libido) is anecdotal only [5]. It has significant side effects such as anxiety reactions. According to the Mayo Clinic, yohimbine can be dangerous if used in excessive amounts.

the sorce... Yohimbine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yohimbine)

greg
09-21-2007, 12:45 PM
What? "Yohimbine is like any other compound, natural or synthetic, that if used as directed is a safe product, in my opinion". What? since when is Yohimbine like any other compound?




You should be a lobbyist, LOL...in my opinion.


The Rest...

Some internet shops sell expensive formulations of yohimbine for transdermal delivery to effect a local reduction of adipose tissue, although there is no evidence that it is effective. Demand for products of this kind is frequently found in the bodybuilding community.

Yohimbine chloride -- a standardized form of yohimbine-- is a prescription medicine that has been used to treat erectile dysfunction. [3] Controlled studies suggest that it is not always an effective treatment for impotence, and evidence of increased sex drive (libido) is anecdotal only [5]. It has significant side effects such as anxiety reactions. According to the Mayo Clinic, yohimbine can be dangerous if used in excessive amounts.

the sorce... Yohimbine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yohimbine)

I guess my grammer was misunderstood. I thought I had the comas in the right place.
I am not comparing yohimbine to all other products, I am stating that yohimbine, like "other" products such as aspirin, prescription medicines, even AAS can be used safely if used as directed and not abused. Alcohol has positive benefits to the body if used in a manner that is not abusive. Anabolic/Androgenic Steroids are used to treat patients with certain muscle wasting diseases effectively and pose little to no danger to the patient as long as they are used as directed.

Also, be careful using an open source reference data base to build your argument on. Wikepedia is for the most part accurate, but I wouldn't use it to back my assertions. There are many instances where the information is completely erroneous.

deepnenergy
09-24-2007, 11:10 AM
I guess my grammer was misunderstood. I thought I had the comas in the right place.
I am not comparing yohimbine to all other products, I am stating that yohimbine, like "other" products such as aspirin, prescription medicines, even AAS can be used safely if used as directed and not abused. Alcohol has positive benefits to the body if used in a manner that is not abusive. Anabolic/Androgenic Steroids are used to treat patients with certain muscle wasting diseases effectively and pose little to no danger to the patient as long as they are used as directed.

Also, be careful using an open source reference data base to build your argument on. Wikepedia is for the most part accurate, but I wouldn't use it to back my assertions. There are many instances where the information is completely erroneous.

Below is the link to Drug Digest that follows a long list of references...


Yohimbe - Drugs & Vitamins - Drug Library - DrugDigest (http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/PrintablePages/herbMonograph/0,11475,4048,00.html)

Read for your self ... now I will head over to the other thread that you carried this over too and answer you there as well...I am done arguing with you; it's like dealing with my two girls 10 & 12. And yes for you to say "it's just like everything else" is what you said....you misspoke I did not misunderstand

Wine has positive effects not booze; yes the grape has many properties that help with blood, heart, musicals, and is a great anti-toxin. Don't try and compare Yohimbine to stuff that is approved as safe...What study have you made to say it is safe at any level? So far what do the studies tell you about it. It took over 40 years before aspirin was named good for heart health in some people...hear that some people, 40 years of research...

The biggest thing I have a problem with is...you say use as directed and you believe, I mean really believe that someone won't drink two or more (beacuse they are Big giant 8oz servings) because you say that? O wait someone(s) has, what happened?

greg
09-24-2007, 12:47 PM
Deep,
Your anger is mis directed. I did not "mis-speak" I used correct grammer with correct punctuation. You "mis read".
I did not say "booze" was good for you, I used the term "alcohol" . Alcohol comes in many forms and even if it is Vodka, a bourbon, or some other distilled product it can have positve benefits in the human body, again, if it is not abused. You put words in my mouth.

You criticize me for saying "if used as directed" and for me believing that a product is safe if it is indeed used as directed. However, then you criticize me for not thinkng about someone taking 2 servings or more....I can not control what people do, all I can do is direct them on how to use the product.
Where woul dbe in this country if we had to baby sit the American Public on all of the consumer goods out there?

When looking at the article you linked I noticed that it gives mild to severe examples of side effects. These side effects started at the most severe amounts of 50mgs to the least severe at 20 mgs. I know my drink does not have anywhere near the 20 mg doses. I bring up this example due to the fact the article, in my view, is giving examples of abuse, not a normal dose which it does cite as having positive influence on serotonin levels as well as positive effects on smooth muscle tissue.

We have speed limits on the highway yet we have cars that can go twice as fast as the posted speed limit, do we blame the manufacturer for a driver making the decision to speed?
I see you are one the people that would like to blame McDonalds for obesity and not the person who makes the conscious decision to eat there 5-6 times a week. Where is the personal responsibility?

deepnenergy
09-24-2007, 04:12 PM
Deep,
Your anger is mis directed. I did not "mis-speak" I used correct grammer with correct punctuation. You "mis read".
I did not say "booze" was good for you, I used the term "alcohol" . Alcohol comes in many forms and even if it is Vodka, a bourbon, or some other distilled product it can have positve benefits in the human body, again, if it is not abused. You put words in my mouth.

You criticize me for saying "if used as directed" and for me believing that a product is safe if it is indeed used as directed. However, then you criticize me for not thinkng about someone taking 2 servings or more....I can not control what people do, all I can do is direct them on how to use the product.
Where woul dbe in this country if we had to baby sit the American Public on all of the consumer goods out there?

When looking at the article you linked I noticed that it gives mild to severe examples of side effects. These side effects started at the most severe amounts of 50mgs to the least severe at 20 mgs. I know my drink does not have anywhere near the 20 mg doses. I bring up this example due to the fact the article, in my view, is giving examples of abuse, not a normal dose which it does cite as having positive influence on serotonin levels as well as positive effects on smooth muscle tissue.

We have speed limits on the highway yet we have cars that can go twice as fast as the posted speed limit, do we blame the manufacturer for a driver making the decision to speed?
I see you are one the people that would like to blame McDonalds for obesity and not the person who makes the conscious decision to eat there 5-6 times a week. Where is the personal responsibility?

<<<Greg>> Yohimbine is like any other compound, natural or synthetic, that if used as directed is a safe product, in my opinion.

Sounds like youíre comparing to me, but I must be "Mis-reading" or didn't see the comma that changed the meaning.

I did not say "booze" was good for you, I used the term "alcohol"

Really what is the difference...this is a poor attempt to attack the way of expressing one's self. I do not have the time to have anger, plus at your price point you are one of my best selling tools. I am not angry with you Greg.


<<Greg>> You criticize me for saying "if used as directed" and for me believing that a product is safe if it is indeed used as directed. However, then you criticize me for not thinking about someone taking 2 servings or more....I can not control what people do, all I can do is direct them on how to use the product.

No just in the manner you said it.

This is where we are different... You can't or don't want to see the fact of ingredients vs. consumption levels? RL like Spike and Rage are very strong, Yes you can control the consumption by the amount of liquid one has to consume to get that energy... Bad excuses to get away from the responsibly to the GP, IMO.

<<Greg>>Where would dbe in this country if we had to baby sit the American Public on all of the consumer goods out there?

It is every manufactures duty to do this or we would have a bunch of things like "lead paint". See we look out and they watch us and I know you don't like hearing that but they are watching....

<<Greg>> When looking at the article you linked I noticed that it gives mild to severe examples of side effects. These side effects started at the most severe amounts of 50mgs to the least severe at 20 mgs. I know my drink does not have anywhere near the 20 mg doses. I bring up this example due to the fact the article, in my view, is giving examples of abuse, not a normal dose which it does cite as having positive influence on serotonin levels as well as positive effects on smooth muscle tissue.

Your right no one knows the amount you use... how long does it take for it to leave your system in the event someone does drink say two in a hour or so? for the most public that doesnít go and lift... I only linked that because you said the info I provided was not reliable enough.

<< Greg>> We have speed limits on the highway yet we have cars that can go twice as fast as the posted speed limit, do we blame the manufacturer for a driver making the decision to speed?
I see you are one the people that would like to blame McDonalds for obesity and not the person who makes the conscious decision to eat there 5-6 times a week. Where is the personal responsibility?[/QUOTE]

The supper size me statement great!... I donít blame Mc Donaldís for Obesity, I blame them for adding sugar to everything and even their salad they washed in sugar water, THAT they have changed since the release of the movie and have stopped suggesting supper size...they seen their mistake and corrected it. As for the roads that is why we pay police to keep the roads safe and the trust people develop for consumer products does not warrant your statement.

OK, whatís next?